Malaysian Deepavali Show - RAJANNA RAJA THAAN

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Malaysian Deepavali Show - RAJANNA RAJA THAAN - From Annakkili to Azhagi

Topic started by Manisekaran (@ 202.156.2.8) on Sun Nov 7 05:23:27 EST 2004.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Last year I did a show on Ilayaraja for Deepavali. IT was so great a hit that the ASTRO Private TV Station is repeating on 9 NOvember at 4.00 pm Malaysian time. This is called RAJANNA RAJATHAAN- covering 25 years of Raja's music contribution. From Annakkili to Azhagi. A great hit. If you can, pls do catch it. You can post your comments on the show here, and I'll respond to them.
Thanks.

Responses:

From: * (@ 209.142.209.161) on: Sun Nov 7 21:49:31 EST 2004

Dear Mani Sir,
I remember your mentioning this on IR's bday thread last year and requested my malaysian friends to watch it. Will it be possible for you to upload the program somewhere so that non-Malaysian fans can also watch the same?
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Sun Nov 7 22:01:03 EST 2004

I have recorded it on Video Cassette. I do not have the technical expertise. If someone could do it, then it would be possible. But that would be copyright infringement.Therfore I would have to send a hard copy if you need it.

Where are you? I may post to you a copy of the cassette.

Thanks
Manisekaran
From: Note Man (@ 35.9.26.160) on: Sun Nov 7 22:03:13 EST 2004

Dear Manisekaran,
For people like me in the US, who have no access to Malaysian TV or in fact any Asian TV, is it possible for you to provide this program through Internet media?

Thanking You in Advance.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Sun Nov 7 22:41:54 EST 2004

Dear TFM PAGE TEAM,

Anyone out there with technical knowledge?

Manisekaran
From: RR (@ 192.122.134.249) on: Mon Nov 8 01:40:25 EST 2004

Manisekaran: Should be possible, provided there's no copyright problem. I'll get in touch with over email. Thanks.
From: app_engine (@ 136.2.1.153) on: Mon Nov 8 10:54:52 EST 2004

Will posting the script alone in TFM-DF be a big issue (i.e. rights stuff)? That might make a great reading....
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.97.60) on: Mon Nov 8 12:22:19 EST 2004

I had selected 25 best songs of Ilayaraja. His bests actually run into at least one hundred, I would say. But these 25 are stand alone songs- milestones in his career. Following recording for 3 hour program, 4 songs were finally omitted- owing to time constraints.

The four songs are:

1. En Kanmani Ilamangani- Shittukkuruvi-counterpoint story

2.Katril Enthan Geetham- Johnny- mesmerised the musicians
3.Engiruntho Azhaikkum un Geetham- Hindi singers yearning to sing under Raja.

4. Oru Jeevan Azhaithathu- Geetanjali- a versatile singer

The rest could be seen over the TV show.

In this thread let us all discuss what we consider are Raja's landmark songs -and giving reasons.

Manisekaran
From: Vazhipokkan (@ 40.0.40.10) on: Mon Nov 8 13:06:53 EST 2004

IR introduced playback recording to TFM in "En Kanmani Ilamangani" song I believe
From: Vazhipokkan (@ 40.0.40.10) on: Mon Nov 8 13:27:36 EST 2004

read recording - re-recording
From: app_engine (@ 136.2.1.153) on: Mon Nov 8 16:42:16 EST 2004

"Raja's landmark songs "
- are these landmark's to be based on specific criteria (i.e. musical) or anything that caused a sensation?
(for e.g. 'iLamai idhO idhO' had a version without vocals on the LP record -probably the first ever in TFM- which was even played on public transportation like buses or had the distinction of being the record number of `fillers' in the end of cassette recording by recording shops:-) This was obviously a landmark song for reasons not purely musical...)
From: app_engine (@ 136.2.1.153) on: Mon Nov 8 16:44:32 EST 2004

Similarly, `nAnAga nAnillai thAyE' probably was the beginning of having the `track singing number' also on the disk / cassette (i.e. the IR version while the SPB version was the only one for the movie). Since a lot of similar numbers followed in the coming years, can this be called a landmark number, being a pioneer in that trend?:-))
From: manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Mon Nov 8 19:26:56 EST 2004

En Kanmani is Raja's first attempt in bringing out Counterpoint technique in its fullnesss, using stereo effect.

We shall start out discusssion, using his films, using Annakkili as a start. So can we go in stages please? I shall indicate the films and all of us can discuss. I fell there must be an order for us to cover maximum.
From: manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Mon Nov 8 19:27:05 EST 2004

En Kanmani is Raja's first attempt in bringing out Counterpoint technique in its fullnesss, using stereo effect.

We shall start out discusssion, using his films, using Annakkili as a start. So can we go in stages please? I shall indicate the films and all of us can discuss. I fell there must be an order for us to cover maximum.
From: eden (@ 136.2.1.153) on: Tue Nov 9 11:01:17 EST 2004

Let's begin:
annakkiLi had the following songs:

-machAnappAththeengaLA (SJ)
-annakkiLi onnaththEdudhE (SJ, happy)
-annakkiLi onnaththEduthE (TMS, pathos)
-suthachchambA pachcha nellu kuththaththAn vENum (SJ + chorus)
-sondhamillai, bandhamillai (PS)

I feel `machAna' is definitely a trend setting song...uRumi mELam with chords:-)
From: Vazhipokkan (@ 40.0.40.10) on: Tue Nov 9 12:41:56 EST 2004

Its hard to remix IR's songs

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/mp/2004/05/24/stories/2004052400660100.htm
From: thumburu (@ 83.89.145.50) on: Tue Nov 9 14:02:12 EST 2004

"Chinna kannan azhaikiraan" dispelled the myth that Raja was fit for only dappanguthus and folk songs. Especially making the carnatic music exponent BalamuraliKrishna to sing the song added authenticity. The song made even the purists or carnatic music rasikas to sit up and take notice of Raja due to the novel adaptation of a strictly carnatic music oriented raga "Reethigowlai" to suit film music.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Tue Nov 9 18:31:42 EST 2004

Thumburu,

Thank you. We will come to Kavikkuyil and that song later.

Eden thanks.
From: k (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Tue Nov 9 19:30:59 EST 2004

Dear ManisEkaran,
We all would be happy to see your list of your 'landmark' songs of IR. I think you will most probably reflect the learned indian audience much better than the young or the initiated who often read this forum.
Looking forward to your writeup.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Tue Nov 9 19:33:18 EST 2004

ANNAKKILI UNNAI THEDUTHE

This song shall always mention the name of Ilayaraja. This song drew the attention of Tamils all over the world towards Pannaipuram, an unheard of village among the 15,000 famous villages at that point of time.

From 1967 to 1975 Ilayaraja was in Madras, endeavouring to enter the cine field as musician. By 1971, Ilayaraja was running a musical band by the name of PAVALAR BROTHERS. Ilayaraja had been assisting G.K. Vengkatesh and a few other MDs, mainly as guitarist. Raja was also playing in musical bands, and drama troupes of Sangili Murugan and Bharathiraja (original name of Chinnasamy, a Malaria Inspector) who moved from Madurai District to Madras in search of cinema chances). Ilayaraja also played in a band run by SP Balasubramaniam. So Ilayaraja�s name was already becoming popular in Madras.

In about 1971, Ilayaraja was booked for composing music for a Tamil film called Deepam (not that of K. Balaji) This was to be a movie supposed to be scripted by writer P. S. Ramaiyah, directed by Dada Mirasi, and starred by Gemini Ganesan, Pathmini, Jayshankar and Cho. However this chance did not materialise. But Ilayaraja had already composed a song called �Sivanai Naadu� sung by TMS for that film. Both the song and the film did not materialise. Then another chance came for a film called UYIR. SP Balasubramaniam, Ilayaraja and close associates booked a sound studio and recorded 4 songs, along with re-recording. As they were late, the producer had selected other MD for the film. The third chance was more promising as Ilayaraja and SP Bala had already participated in a pooja for a film in which Ilayaraja was booked as and MD. This too faded off.

Finally, a chance came through Panju Arunasalam, who was of the opinion that the quality of Tamil film music was already facing a downhill trend. Panju wanted new talents and new face in the music world. He had heard of Ilayaraja, and wanted to meet him at Palmgrove Hotel in Nungambakkam area. Ilayaraja went empty handed- with no musical instrument with him. Panju�s first impression on Ilayaraja was quite negative. In a subtle attempt to avoid him, Panju requested Raja to return the following day and compose some of his songs that were readily available. Raja, who did not want to miss this golden opportunity volunteered to sing the songs that he had composed. So Raja drummed on the nearby table and sang all the songs that are in Annakkili. Panju was truly and wholly impressed, and there and then decided to use him for Annakili. Panju asked for the name of Ilayaraja, who was born Gnana Desigan, and became David Rasaiya following the conversion of his family to Christianity. Raja introduced himself as Rasaiya. As there was already an elderly AM Raja, Panju named him a younger Raja- Ilayaraja. So came the long awaited chance and a new name.

Bu that was no the end of the tests and tribulations that Raja had to face before succeeding in his first movie. Panju�s producer brother K.N. Subbu who owned the SPT films was not too impressed with Ilayaraja. But Ilayaraja had already composed all the songs for Annakkili. Subbu demanded listening to all the songs in full before a final clearance could be given. This was the last stride. Raja had to either make it or break it. On the following day, he rounded up about 60 musicians and brought them to Balaji Marriage Hall where he played all the songs that he had composed. It was only then that Subbu was convinced.

Again, he ordeal had not ended. On the recording day, the orchestra, S. Janaki and the key players in the production of music for the film had turned up. When everything was set, and when the recording was about to begin, there was a power cut! Raja and other s were very depressed. When power supply resumed, the song was taken about 10 times for ensuring perfection. Finally the tenth attempt was given OK. Other songs were also recorded.

When the film was released, the first ten days were most depressing as the crowd was not there at the theatres. But in stages, as the ALL India Radio started to broadcast the songs, crowd started to swell. That was a time when there was a trend to produce colour movies. In this movie, one could not boast of charismatic stars. Sivakumar and Sujatha were there. Finally, this movie became the only Silver Jubilee hit for 1976- no movie of MGR and Sivaji Ganesan could be compared with Annakkili.

The Silver Jubilee celebrations were arranged in an open field at Madurai. Unfortunately there was a heavy downpour, and so there was no big crowd. Yet some die-hard fans for Ilayaraja were already created by this first movie. As the rain subsided, one such fan went to the micrphone and yelled in utter desperation to see Ilayaraja. He shouted, �Where is Ilayaraja, the MD for AnnakkilI?�

It is only usual for audience to turn up to see the actors and actresses for any victory celebrations. But Annakkili was the first movie, it is reported, where the fans had turned up to welcome the MD and not the stars. This is said to be the first movie where the status and value of Music Director had scaled higher than that of the stars.

It is said that the original singer booked for the film was LR. Eswary. However, at the last moment S. Janaki was booked for reasons that are yet to be made public. Janaki started to reign supreme. Panju had introduced a new genius who was to change the trend and set new standards in the filed of cine music. Annakkili Unnai Theduthe was the beginning of many pleasant beginnings. That song shall ever be synonymous of Ilayaraja.

Now, over to Raja's fans for further discussions.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Tue Nov 9 19:43:16 EST 2004

Dear K,

When the ASTRO was for discussions, we identified about 50 over landmark songs. But they could not be contained in a 3 hour program. So we had to accomodate with only 25 songs- reflecting 25 years of Raja's contribution. Finally four songs had to be cut off to give way for commercials as well.

So you would appreciate that oury hands were tied.

In this thread, I am going to list, what I think are landmark songs with my own reasons. As usual readers could agree, disagree, or throw in more light.

Should we go in stages, we could be ensured of healthy and interesting discussion. I am going to reveal interesting titbits that I gained from Ilayaraja himself and his close assiociates.

There are already many, nay, numerous threads on IR- some contain unhealthy vibrations and spirit. I have dedicated this to his fans, not bashers.

With sincere souls like you around, let us see what best could come out of this thread.
TQ

Subthread #2 :

From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Tue Nov 9 19:49:19 EST 2004

Dear IR fans,

I was in office yesterday as the Ilayaja show was on air. I recived many SMS and phone calls.

NOV was the first to call. Apparently he lives near my house. We have not met. He has seen my face for the first time over the show. I will be seeing him on Deepavali day- he has invited me.

This moring emails placing appreciations are pouring in- a clear Indiaction that Raja still reigns supreme- even after the 30 year period.
From: walrus (@ 130.127.119.79) on: Tue Nov 9 19:55:24 EST 2004

Dear Mani Sir,
Plz let us know if there will be a repeat telecast of the program on Astro..if so, the timing
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Tue Nov 9 20:55:48 EST 2004

Dear Walrus,
I can request Dr. Rajamani to consider. Are you a Malaysian?

Manisekaran
From: Amu (@ 202.179.114.34) on: Tue Nov 9 21:05:51 EST 2004

hi manisegaran Sir,
Nice programme and keep up the good work.

all the best
From: manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Tue Nov 9 21:57:18 EST 2004

Amu

Thanks for the compliments. So I guess you had seen the program.

manisekaran
From: manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Tue Nov 9 22:00:17 EST 2004

An information I had left out....

Ilayaraja himself was surprised at the resounding success of this very first song. It is a slow tempo song. Slow tempo songs may become popular alright, but need not always become insant hits. That song was the slowest tempo song of 1996, and to Raja's surprise, the sone emerged with great success and big sensation.
From: Gyan (@ 68.75.177.101) on: Tue Nov 9 22:06:54 EST 2004

Manisekaran, it will be interesting for me to make some guess here, but I am eagerly awaiting the entire discussion in no specific order

1. Kannan Oru Kai Kuzhandhai
2. En Iniya Pon Nilavey
3. PoonKaatru
4. Maame Oru Naal
5. Yenna Paattu Paada
6. O Nenjamey
7. Yetho Ninaivugal
8. Indha Minminikku
9. Naaney Naana
10. Poovizhi Vaasalil Yaaradi
11. Naane Naana
12. Yeh Paadal Onru
13. Poonaaana Meni
14. Sridevi Yen Vaazhvil
15. Poonoviyam Kanden
16. Oru Jeevan Azhaithathu
17. Vetti Veru Vaasam
18. Ilaya Nila
19. Yaar Veettu Roja
20. Paadava Un Paadalai
21. Kaadhalin Dheepan Onru (the feelings i get from this song and brings acceptance within)
22. Unnai Thaaney
23. Roja Ondru Muttham
24. Senthazham Poovil & all songs of Mullum Malarum are landmark in distinct ways
25. Kanmaniye Kaadhal Enbadhu (my Mom' who hardly listens to music has this favorite)
26. Rajanodu Rani Vandhu Serum
27. Rakkama Kaiya
28. Aasa Athikam Vachchu
29. Thendral Vandhu Theendum
30. Yennai Thaalatta Varuvaalo
31. Amma Yendru Annaikaadha Uyir
From: manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Tue Nov 9 22:15:53 EST 2004

Dear Gyan,

Thank you so much for the enthusiasm. You are listing your favourites,I think. Please do not guess. Only four of your songs concur with mine unless you could substantiate.

The current song is ANNAKILI UNNAI THEDUTHE. Let us discuss that first.

Manisekran
From: Gyan (@ 68.75.177.101) on: Tue Nov 9 22:41:23 EST 2004

Manisekaran Sir, yes ;---) sorry for guessing, but those songs were like landmark institutions ( i forgot one major song that almost brought the city to the radio each and every time it played - Orey Naal Unai Naan) but, you mean to say you will give for each of the songs a huge write-up like for Annakkili unnai .....? I can't wait...

Thank you, Thank you!!!!!!
From: RR (@ 192.122.134.249) on: Tue Nov 9 23:19:09 EST 2004

Manisekaran: Any reasons why he selected 'annakkili unnaitheduthe' for his debut movie? I was somewhat disappointed to learn that it was originally composed(?) by dancer Padma subramanium.
From: vilvam (@ 60.48.8.254) on: Wed Nov 10 00:46:01 EST 2004

mani sir

pls ask DR.RAJAMANI to do astro guide book in tamil. no a single tamil word during deepavali. that makes me to cancel the subscription. is there any chance to see ur programme in other tv channel?
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Wed Nov 10 01:33:30 EST 2004

Dear Vilvam,
I am seeing Dr.Rajamani one of these days, and I shall convey your sentiments. I do appear on other TVs on offical matters. Last week I appeared on TV 1 to explain on Copyright Matters in the Malay language.

As for the Ilayaraja show I was asked to produce a script. Upon reading my script they told me to host it myself. I hesitated, but finally had to agree.

You may call me at 22748402 Menara Dayabumi, Kuala Lumpur for further clarification.

TQ.
manisekaran
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Wed Nov 10 01:45:19 EST 2004

RR

Annakkili has following famous songs:

1. Adi raakaayi mookkaayi S.Janaki
2. Annakkili unnai theduthe - SJ S.Janaki
3. Annakkili unnai theduthu (sad) - TMS
4. Machchanap paaththeengalaa S.Janaki
5. Sonthamillai panthamillai S.Janaki

I am aware that there is a gap on the song Annakkili Unnai Theduthe. Ilayaraja says he sang all the songs to Panju Arunasalam when he met up with him at Palmgrove Hotel. So the question is who was the writer of the lyrics? We have all along been told that lyrics was by Panju Arunasalam. It is clear that Raja must have given only the THATHAKARAM -tune.

In another interview with Gangai Amaran in a program called Thirayum Isayum, a video cassette of which is with me, he says that that Annakkili UNnai Theduthe was a song sang for a long time at Pannaipuram vilage. It seems his mother CHinnathayi Ammal, a temple singer herself used to sing the song. Gangai Amaran even sings a portion of the song:

Annakkeelee Onna Theduthe...

From the aforegoing, it is clear that the tune was already with Raja. That Pathma Subramaniam had composed the song belonging to Pannaipuram folks is news to me.

Ilayaraja is about to start his journey to 6 countries, including Malaysia. If he comes I may ask him this question.

Meanwhile, let me enquire around on your querry.

Manisegaran
From: kb (@ 203.199.204.166) on: Wed Nov 10 01:59:34 EST 2004

opening 'humming' and music is masterpiece of the song 'annakili unnai theyduthey'. it's a treat to ears.
From: RR (@ 202.156.2.8) on: Wed Nov 10 02:21:00 EST 2004

Manisekaran: I too feel it should be a 'naattuppura paadal'. I cannot confirm Padma S. composed it. (that's why a '?' in my post.) But she made a statement on those lines, on tv. I'm not sure if she meant a dance composition based on this song :-). Probably you can find out more from Raja himself. Thanks.
From: RR (@ 202.156.2.8) on: Wed Nov 10 02:26:39 EST 2004

One more query: why didn't he use his close friend SPB in 'Annakkili'? (superstitious because of their earlier failed tries together? :)
From: manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Wed Nov 10 03:21:30 EST 2004

RR,
You are right, it must be for dance composition.
About SP Bala not singing in Annakkili I shall discuss later.

I shall take leave now for DEEPAVALI break.

HAPPY DEEPAVALI TO ALL ILAYARAJA FANS.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Wed Nov 10 03:47:20 EST 2004

Gyan,

You are talking about a famous and hit song. That alone does not make one a landmark song. You shall know as the trhead and discussion progress.

HAPPY DEEPAVALI.
From: mythila (@ 193.88.72.179) on: Wed Nov 10 05:59:16 EST 2004

Happy Deepavali Mani Sir. Thank you for the diwali gift you gave given the tfmdfers, especially many who don't have access to Malaysian TV , by way of your write up.
From: Gyan (@ 68.75.177.101) on: Wed Nov 10 11:25:54 EST 2004

Dear Manisekaran Sir:

Happy Deepavali to you!!! I have a few questions that you may like to ask IR, which I will repeat after you are back:

1. Has he ever heard his own compositions
2. Does he find errors in his compositions
3. How much has Malayalam composers had influence on IR' perception of music (for sure, I know the aboslutely stunning greats VDakshinamoorthy & MKArjunan has had the greatest impact on IR than anyone else, more than Mozart or Salil Choudhry or Bach, in the sense IR has found spontaneity in orchestration from Mozart, Chord progressions from Salilda, Counterpoint or dialog style repetitions from Bach, but for moods, melody and a timeless feel he has complete inspiration of those 2 I mentioned.)
4. What are the idioms that continue to perplex IR, if any at all are there.

5. How does IR manage to switch idioms for Hindi and English

6. What does IR think of Carnatic guitar and mandolin and why he preferred to use only Violin for carantic interludes etc..

7. Will future works like TiS be more easily available?

8. Do we obtain Miss World 96, Moods, First Symphony etc....

Thanks!
From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Wed Nov 10 11:27:09 EST 2004

RR, the song that got into controversy with Padma was "raman aandalum" from MuLLum malarum, where the intial portions were actually froma folk song by Padma. IR was inspired from a lot of folk songs in his early years. Kannan oru kai kuzhandhai was another song inspired from his mother's folk songs or some other source like that

Subthread #3 :

From: eden (@ 136.1.1.154) on: Wed Nov 10 14:58:57 EST 2004

`annakkiLi onnaththEdudhE' - the first few lines of the song is for sure from a nAttuppurappAdal...(probably the rest were added by Panju or Raja)...Sometime around the release of annakkiLi, there was a program in AIR where an old lady sang the (original) nAttupurappAdal starting with `annakkiLi onnaththEdudhE' followed by some other verses...

Even the melody was very similar though more rustic and not as polished as the SJ version:-)

There cannot be any question or dispute that all or most of the initial folk songs of IR had lot of village-song inspirations and not 100% exclusive from his creative brain cells...however, we (especially those of village roots) can be extremely thankful that IR made those so popular through the movie media, decorated with layers and layers of brilliant instrumental music and using sweeeeeeet voices like that of SJ...
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.154) on: Wed Nov 10 15:08:13 EST 2004

Thanks Manisekaran for the excellent write-up!
From: e (@ 136.1.1.154) on: Wed Nov 10 15:16:13 EST 2004

sondhamillai, bandhamillai was sung by PS:-) (and not SJ)..I think this song was added later on to the movie. I remember seeing posters of the film featuring this song as an addition...
From: e (@ 136.1.1.154) on: Wed Nov 10 17:05:07 EST 2004

I read during the annakkiLi days that the sale of the gramaphone disk had broken the record of the erstwhile topper `elanthappazham...chekka chevantha pazham'...is it correct? Was it HMV that released the disk? With no possibility of piracy, there must be authentic numbers of those sales...can someone close to the industry give the till-1976 sales figures of `elanthappazham' and the ultimate numbers for `machAna pAtheengaLA'?
From: RR (@ 202.156.2.8) on: Wed Nov 10 17:19:33 EST 2004

vijay: that song also, but the fact is 'annakkili unnaitheduthe' (or a version of it) was already there in Padma's camp, before IR became an MD.
From: SK (@ 66.57.14.197) on: Wed Nov 10 19:09:23 EST 2004

Great job you are doing here Mr.manisekaran!
Very impressive! I am very eager to get this going! Thanks.
Happy deepAvaLi!!!
From: k (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Wed Nov 10 21:18:39 EST 2004

Mani sir, a good song to start of your list. By picking the right representative sample you are proving that you have the hallmarks of a good historian.

I just heard the song online and by todays IR's standards, the orchestration in this song may not be much. But the confidence and the direction he wants to go shows through in this song. From annakkiLi to todays ThiruvAsagam ..what a career !!!
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.138) on: Tue Nov 16 19:01:40 EST 2004

Just back after a week's leave.

Gyan, I shall ask IR if I see him.

Annakkili UNnai Theduthe is certainly a folk song. Radio malaysia, in 1979 aired a program in which Malaysai Vasudevan who bmade a brief visit to Malaysia sang a few lines of the song. Of course he did not sing in the film. In that program, it was mentioned that Annakkili was lifted from folk song. But the song was well decorated by IR's music.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.138) on: Tue Nov 16 19:01:52 EST 2004

Just back after a week's leave.

Gyan, I shall ask IR if I see him.

Annakkili Unnai Theduthe is certainly a folk song. Radio malaysia, in 1979 aired a program in which Malaysai Vasudevan who bmade a brief visit to Malaysia sang a few lines of the song. Of course he did not sing in the film. In that program, it was mentioned that Annakkili was lifted from folk song. But the song was well decorated by IR's music.
From: raj (@ 61.246.255.3) on: Tue Nov 16 23:12:06 EST 2004

mani sir,

Sondhamillai bandhamillai was by PS
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.138) on: Tue Nov 16 23:26:01 EST 2004

Raj,

I am coming to Sonthamilli banthamillai later in an appropriate slot. I may not be following a chronologial order. I prefer topical approach.

We shall move on to the next landmark song.
From: Maniseakran (@ 61.6.39.138) on: Tue Nov 16 23:27:12 EST 2004

2. ORU NAAL UNNODU ARU NAAL

Sri Vishnupriya Creations URAVAADUM NENJAM is an important film for Ilayaraja. The film itself happened to be an utter failure. But there was a landmark that Ilayaraja had left for us. The song Oru Naal Unnodu Oru Naal was earmarked for success of the movie. The song was an instant hit alright, but the movie had nothing to boast of.

This was the third film for Raja, after Palooti Valartha Kili. However, S.P. Bala�s first song under Ilayaraja was recorded for URAVAADUM NENJAM movie, and that is Oru Naal Unnodu Oru Naal. Ilayaraja had assisted other MDs, such as GK Vengatesh, who had used Bala.But those were not to be attributed to Raja.

When Ilayaraja was composing under various MDs in the late 1960s Bala was already a playback singer following the film Shanthi Nilayam, under MS Visvanathan. Bala�s first ever-Tamil song was a duet with LR Eswary in the film Hotel Ramba. The song is �Athanukku Eppadi Irukku Mansukkulle.� Both the song and the film were never released. The Shanthi Nilayam song was the first to be released. But it was the song Ayiram Nilave Vaa in ADIMAI PENN that boosted Bala to new heights.

While looking for cine chances, Bala was first singing under the Paavalar Brothers. Later Raja played harmonium and guitar under the band that Bala initiated.

Raja was invited to compose for a film called UYIR. Bala and a few others sang and recorded 4 songs under Raja�s composition. The film never materialised. Then came Annakili. Bala and Raja were among the thickest of friends. However, when Annakili came by, Raja could not impose on using Bala. It was Raja�s debut and Panju had all the say. Raja was interested in breaking through. But when URAVADUM NENJAM was in the making, Raja made sure Bala was in. In an attempt to honour his close friend, Raja wanted to make sure he composed a song that would be cherished by both the composer and the singer. Remember the title of the film is also URAVADUM NENJAM. So Ilayaraja centered all his energy, effort and imagination to compose what would ever remain as one of the best songs for a best friend of his. Likewise, SP Bala too made sure he sang with much feeling. S. Janaki too followed suit. The lyrics were by Panju Arunasalam.

The song, especially the orchestration was something unknown to many fans of Tamil film music. It was simply rich orchestration. Ilayaraja told Bala that the film would run for 100 days on the strength of the song. Raja proposed, but the moviegoers disposed. The film became an utter failure- commercially. However, the song became immortalised, and is one of my best.

The story did not end there. It was on the lips of Bala for a long time. Every time Bala entered the recording studio, he used to sing to himself or hum this song. And Raja used to immediately respond, � Naama Ennnumo Nenachom, Padam Odalaiye daa� (These two friends called each other �vaada poda.�)

However, Raja�s first song for his closest friend shall always be on our lips too.

Over to dear Raja fans for further details and discussions.
From: sudalai (@ 203.101.73.165) on: Wed Nov 17 04:44:37 EST 2004

Great work, Mani...!
Thanks a lot.
From: Kiran (@ 202.73.40.67) on: Wed Nov 17 05:12:44 EST 2004

In singapore and malaysia , we got singapore symphony orchestra and malaysian philharmonic orchestra respectively....conducting concerts .....how nice it would be if IR starts something like
"THE GRAND ILAYARAJA ORCHESTRA" ...that conducts symphonies and other concerts...in chennai......
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.154) on: Wed Nov 17 10:57:03 EST 2004

'oru nAL' -whenever I listen to this song, I'm filled with nostalgia of school days...this is one of those songs that used to give goose bumps those days...esp the interludes...

Can you imagine someone 12 yrs old, a village boy with absolutely no training or exposure to music other than AIR / IOKS, who doesn't watch even movies, start appreciating the violin-rich interludes and start trying to mimic the sound with vocal chords all the time? That was the kind of effect this song had on me...music's power...and Raja raising the standards of the listeners...
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.138) on: Wed Nov 17 19:08:53 EST 2004

Eden,

You are adding spice towards the enrichment of our discussions. Thanks
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Thu Nov 18 04:02:33 EST 2004

KETTELE ANGEY �first controversy song
Talking of Badrakali, one�s mind is sure to capture the all time famous hit "Kannan Oru kai Kuzhanthai." Much has been discussed and reported of that song. However, I would like to bring to the fore a song that stirred so much controversy in Tamilnadu, of course for no fault of Ilayaraja. The song itself and the MD have no involvement in this controversy. The only reason I am quoting this song �in passing� is because this was the first of Ilayaraja�s songs to have faced an unprecedented tempest in his career, all because of the picturisation. But the controversies that Raja directly in music are to follow soon.

Maharishi�s novel was adapted as Badrakali, in which Ilayaraja composed music.

The songs of Badrakali are:

1. Aanantha Bairavi by MR Vijaya
2. Kettele Angey by P. Suseela
3. Kannan oru kai Kuzhanthai by KJ Jesudass and P. Suseela
4. Odukiraal Urugugiraal by Seergazhi Gvovindarajan
5. Ottha Ruba Unakku Taharen by S. Janaki and Malaysia Vasudevan

The song that I have selected for discussion is Kettele Angey. Even while the movie was in the making, there was already an air of excitement, mainly following the unexpected and untimely passing of the heroine Rani Chandra. The film had then to be carefully completed, using another female actress. However, as soon as the film was released, it drew new opposition from the Brahmin community. In the story the hero wanted to go for a disco dance. The wife, having read the intention of the husband decides to perform the record dance at home to entertain the husband. Unfortunately she was wearing the graceful madisaru pudavai often used in the Brahmin community. The Brahmin community took offence to a Brahmin girl performing record dance wearing the madisaru pudavai. This controversy itself gave undue publicity for the movie and many rushed to the theatre. The controversy workled in favour of the movie. I remember seeing the movie at the Diamond Talkies at Pondy Bazar area (today it is no more there). The song was well written by Vali, following his great success in Aduthathu Ambujathai Paathela song in Ethirneechal.

Kettele Angey is very beautifully set to folk tune, in which Raja simply excelled.

Kettele Ange
Adhai Parthela Inge
Ethaiyo Nenechel Athaiye Nenachen -Naan
Ambalaiyaan manusu Pole nadappen
Intha Aathukkari Verethukku Irukken?
Vangonnaa! Ada Vangonna!

Madisaru Pudavaikku Illatha Azhaga?
Veraaru Yennattam Nadai Pottu Varuvaa?
Theriyathannaa Puriyathanaa
Vayasillaiya Nekkum?
Vasiyam Pannatuma?

Tanjavoor kadamapathai Mozham pottu Vangi
Thalaimele vaVachundu Ninneene Engi
Manakkalaiyo mayakkalaiyio
Kothikalaiyo Udambu
Pakka nanillaiyo?
Vangonna Ada Vangonna

Pollathe Aasaikku Yenintha Alaichal?
Kallattam Irukene Nekkena Kuaichal?
Mookirukku Muzhi Irukku Aazhakillaiyo Nekku
Aadi Kattattuma?
Vangonna Ada Vangonna

This was the Fourth Film for Ilayaraja that ran for 175 days. It turned out to be another feather in his cap.

When I went for tea in Seergazhi Govindarajan, I enquired him on the song that he had sung in Badrakali- Odugiraal,Urugugiraal. Seergazhiyar told me that the song was of average score and that Ilayaraja was still at infant stage. But he believed then, that Ilayaraja still had a long way to go before he could prove himself. True enough, very soon, Ilayaraja scaled new heights in the world of Tamil film music.

In my discussion with PB Sreenivas, he told me that Ilayaraja had some unique capabilities, yet to be well understood by any average listener.

I conversed with these two immediately after the success of Badrakali.

To cut the story short, the song that I had cited is just the beginning of many other direct controversies yet to be created by Raja. �Narathar Sandai Nallathil Mudiyum� So were the meaningful controversies created by Ilayaraja in the later years.

Over to the fans for further comments and details.
From: keerthanarambham (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Thu Nov 18 05:12:56 EST 2004

Dear Mani, as usual a great write up and recap of golden yesteryears. Though "kannan oru kai kuzhandhai" is still my personal favourite, "kettele ange" cannot be dismissed that lightly. It revived the dappanguthu after quite a long lull period after the "elandhapazham" craze. I was under the impression for a long time that Bhadrakali was by MSV.

Subthread #4 :

From: raj (@ 61.246.255.3) on: Thu Nov 18 05:59:28 EST 2004

Badrakali -

It should be remembered for many things..

This was the first movie where Vaali & IR came together.

This was directed by A.C.Thirulokachander and a commandable performance by Rani chandra.

Most of the early compositions of IR were great and the best example is Kannan oru kai kuzhandai.

Coming to Kettele Ange though it is of dappanguthu style it was nicely tuned by IR and sung beautifully by PS and apt lyrics by Vaali. Even a slight addition of dirty words would have made the song vulgar.

Gangai Amaran hails this song in all his interviews for PS�s rendition, Vaali�s lyrics and IR�s tune.

A great Song
From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Thu Nov 18 12:36:35 EST 2004

Manisekaran, wasnt "KaNNan oru kaikuzhandhai" inspired from a folk song as well? I remember GA or someone mentioning it long time back.

In addition to your interesting anecdotes, I would request you to add more comments/assessments from celebrities like that of Seergazhi, PBS etc. on IR during the various stages.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Thu Nov 18 19:52:55 EST 2004

Dear Keerthanarambam, Raj and Vijay

Thanks for your enthusiastic inputs. Raja and his brothers had performed, reportedly twenty thousand shows all over the southern provinces, befor Raja entered the cine field. many of his early songs were very much influenced by folk tunes and songs. I shall list them as the thread unfolds.

About comments from other MDs and celebrities, yes, some were sincere in appreciating Raja, while others were shrouded in garment of jealousy. I may want to leave out some of those negative comments. However, let me see how I can subtly bring them into our future discussions.
From: Cynical?? (@ 166.121.37.8) on: Thu Nov 18 21:19:49 EST 2004

Manisekaran,

For someone to put up 20 000 shows, they must be performing on a daily basis for about 54 years nonstop!!!!!

Could the figure be more reasonably around 2000 instead. A typo maybe????
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Thu Nov 18 22:30:02 EST 2004

Dear Cynical
I concur with your guess. I took the information from two sources, mentioning the same figure.
From: vig (@ 202.56.195.41) on: Thu Nov 18 23:59:47 EST 2004

wud like to ask if there s any non-stop tamil music only channel(or FM), preferably IR, in Malysia, Singapore, Srilanka or ant part of the world. Here in thamizh naadu one such channel, scv, used to air non-stop music, very soothing IR songs in the morning and evening. But now that has been now delittled by introducin VJ talks..
From: vig (@ 202.56.195.41) on: Fri Nov 19 00:01:36 EST 2004

a typo ...please read belittled instead of delittled
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Fri Nov 19 03:44:05 EST 2004

4. NALLAVARKKELLAA SAATCHIKAL RENDU
This is a very sad part of my series. This talks of the parting of two greatest and most talented personages Tamilnadu has seen. It is the parting of TMS and Raja. My keyboard hesitates to belittle the one of the greatest singers who had entertained me from the time I was born. But a spade cannot be called by any other name. A spade is a spade!

TMS had been reigning supreme for three decades, and had sung under various. In those days it was not easy for any MD to enter the industry. When Ilayaraja entered the industry, there was a popularly held view that Ilarayaja would not last long. This was because he was a trend setter and the trend could not be accepted nor digested by other singers, lyricists MDs and even the music fans, little realising that Raja�s music turned out to be an addiction from which there was to be no relief nor release! But that is later history that we all know of.

The initial days were days of much tests and trials for Raja. TMS was one of those who believed that Raja would not make it. Somehow TMS and Raja could never get along. When Raja was assisting other MDs he had seen and admired the great talents of TMS. When working under GK Vengatesh, Raja had composed a few songs for TMS but they fell under the banner of GK Vengatesh. As early as 1971 Raja was commissioned to compose for a movie based on story by BS Ramaiyah. That movie was called DEEPAM (not that of Balaji), supposedly directed by Dada Mirasi, and starred by Gemini Ganesan, Pathmini, Jayshankar and Cho. In that movie TMS sang the song �Sivanai Naadu� However, that song did not come out, neither the movie. So history has it that the first to sing under Ilayaraja was none other than TMS himself.

In about August 1974 there was another combination of the great Titans. In an unnamed Prasad Productions movie Raja made way for TMS to sing a song entitled �Jinjaru Jinjaru.� That was the turning point, with both disagreeing on the tune.

The third was in Annakkili in 1975. TMS was riding very high then and Ilayaraja could not dictate terms in his first movie. All Raja wanted was to enter into the cine field. So Panju Arunaslam and producer K.N. Subbu. When Raja played the sad version of Annakkili Unnai Theduthe for TMS, TMS expressed reservations, saying that the tune was very much village based. Of course it was a folk tune based song! TMS just wanted to have his way, and impose his seniority arrogance. Ilayaraja was patient and allowed TMS to sing his way. The song came out well. But raja felt it could have been better, had TMS sung the way the MD had composed. The old wounds were still there.

TMS was a permanent singer for MGR and TMS. By this time MGR had retired from cinema and gone into active politics, while Sivaji Ganesan continued acting. As far as possible Ilayaraja decided not to use TMS until and unless situations were beyond his control. He found it difficult to avoid TMS in movies starred by Sivaji Ganesan. In Balaji�s DEEPAM, Raja had to use TMS, and the song was

Anthappurathil Oeru maharani

Though he had a sore relationship with TMS, Raja made sure that his part was well performed. This songsung along with S. janaki came out extremely well. (As the song was released it was widely spoken that Ilayaraja showed his masterly knowledge of music by mixing Mayamalagovla raga with western classical orchestration (This kazhudai does not know the smell of katpoooram. Could someone help out in the ragas please??

In 1978 Sivaji acted in Thyagam. The film was silver jubilee hit with gem like songs. Raja tuned the following songs for TMS:

1. Nallavarkellam Saatchikal Rendu
2. Then Malli Poove
3. Ulakam Oru Iruttu

Who could dispute the composition of excellent music for these songs?

In 1979 Raja made TMS sing for Sivaji in Nallathoru Kudumbam and that great song that TMS sang along with Suseela is:

Chinthu Nathikkarai Oram

In the same year came Naan Vaazha Vaippen, another Sivaji Movie in which raja composed one of his best songs for TMS:

Enthan pon Vanname Anbu Poo Vanname
Nejnil Poraattame
Kannnil neerottama
Athai naan paarkkava
Manamthaan Thannguma

Finally in 1980 Raja made TMS sing for another Sivaji movie- Rishi Moolam. The song is:

Neramithu Nenjil Oru Paattu paadida

(In Kavarimaan Raja made Jesudass and SP Bala sing for Sivaji)

The fact remains that all the songs that Raja composed for TMS were simply great. But why did raja reduce the chances for TMS? It was the making of TMS himself. Films with raja�s music were becoming hits after hits. Yet TMS did not accept or respect Raja. Twow incidents could be quoted here....

Continues....please read the continuation.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Fri Nov 19 03:46:22 EST 2004

One took place in Malaysia. In about 1977 Ilayaraja came to Malaysia on a musical tour. TMS too followed him. When at Radio Malaysia, Poobalan the head of Tamil section was eagerly conversing with Ilayaraja who was an upcoming MD. TMS had come to Malaysia a number of times and had known Pooblan personally TMS saw Pooblan and Ilayaraja conversing and shouted to Poobalan �Yow Poobalan, Antha Sinna payalkitte Ennaiya Pechu? Vaaya namma Pesikkittiruppom�. Both Pooblan and raja were shocked by this comment by TMS. Next came the TV interview in a program called �Tumpuan Minggu� (�Weekly Focus� in the Malay language) Poobalan asked TMS, �You have been singing for many years. What is the difference in songs composed by old timers against those composed these days?� TMS immediately answered � if one could sing for a simple tune by people like G Ramanathan, then you could sing for any tune by any PAYAL in any part of the world.� Again Poobalan and raja were stunned by this direct hit on Ilayaraja.

The second incident took place in Sri Lanka. The journalists approached TMS and some questions were raised on the upcoming MD Ilayaraja. PONNU OOORUKKU PUTHUSU was just released then. TMS agreed to give his comments on condition the papers do not carry his coments, to which the journalists agreed. Then TMS said �Ippo Orambo paaduravan ellaam konjam Naalile Oram Poyiduvaan� Unfortunately the mischievous press betrayed TMS and published this statement. Raja read it from Chennai and took exception. That was the last chapter for TMS. Yet when TMS had lost his voice completely, raja made him sing a song in THAAIKKU ORU THAALAATTU (1986) for the tune of the old song in PUTHIYA PARAVAI- Unnai Ondru Ketpen. The song is:

�Pazhaya paadal Pole Puthiya paadal Illai�

That was simply unbearable from TMS.

For many years TMS fans had been chasing Raja as to why he had not been using TMS in his music. Finally at a Singapore show, Raja very cleverly and subtly made his point. Raja answered, � In the entire Tamil Film Music world there is no one to equal the incomparable TMS. He is the only singer to bring out all the emotions in full, in its entirety. No one else could do it. However, that I could not use that great singer in my music is my misfortune and that he could not sing in my music is hi misfortune.�

Nothing can be clearer than that! Ilayaraja recognises the great singer, but bridges had been burnt and there was to be no going back. Yet, Ilayaraja never failed to place on record his personal appreciation for the talents of TMS. If only these two giants had combined their effort the fans of tamil filom music would have been well blessed with more gems. Most unfortunate!

On a number of occasions Raja had mentioned how much he was mesmerised by the TMS- Leela song from Bagapirivinai:

Thalzhayaam poo Mudichu
Thadam Paarthu Nadai Nadanthu
Vaazhai Ilai Pola Vantha Ponnamma
En Vasalukku Vanguivanthathu Yennamma?

I had used Enthan Pon Vanname in the Deepavali show. But for the dear readers of TFM Page I am quoting another song from THIAGAM, written by Kannadasan. There is a reason for that. Look at the wordings. Ilayaraja has mentioned that the lyrics seemed to console him at a time when he himself was labouring to come up in the cine field. Again, as Raja puts it, TMS was able to bring out all the emotions that Raja imagined while composing the tune.

Here goes that immortal song written by the one and the only Kannadasan, sung by what has been described by Raja as the greatest Singer, and composed by one of the greatest genius Ilayaraja, and of course picturised on the greatest actor of all time.

Nallavarkkellaam saatchigal rendu onru manasaatchi
onru dheyvaththin saatchiyammaa
nambikkai vaiththu kallaiyum paarththaal
dheyvaththin kaatchiyammaa
adhudhaan ullaththin saatchiyammaa
adhudhaan unmaikku saatchiyammaa

aandavan ariya nenjil oru thuli vanjam illai
avananri enakku vaeru aarudhal illai
paravaigalae badhil sollungal
manidhargal mayangum poadhu neengal paesungal
manadhirku manadhu konjam thoodhu sellungal

(nallavarkkellaam)

nadhi vellam kaayndhu vittaal nadhi seytha kutram illai
vidhi seytha kutram anri vaeru aethammaa
manidhanammaa mayangugiraen
thavarukkuth thunindha manidhan azhuvadhillaiyae
thavariyum vaanam mannil vizhuvadhillaiyae

(nallavarkkellaam)

Over to the IR fans for discussion
See all of you in a few days! Happy Weekend!
From: ashok (@ 61.11.121.14) on: Fri Nov 19 04:21:18 EST 2004

Hi Manisekaran,
All those information were really mind blowing ..in some way , the information is as green and as mind blowing as Raajas music and that beautiful lyrics that you have mentioned. Thanks a lot . please pour in more. Let me and thousands of Muisc lovers get some knowlege about the great past of Raaja.

Subthread #5 :

From: mahabs (@ 203.197.138.163) on: Fri Nov 19 04:25:18 EST 2004

dear manisekaran sir

thank you very much for giving the lyrics for this beautiful song. whenever i hear this song, i never could stop tears coming in my eyes.

anbudan
mahabs
From: Kiran (@ 202.73.40.66) on: Fri Nov 19 04:45:15 EST 2004

Dear Manisekaran,
Thats ultimate history u r writing...but one request.....wherever u r using tamil lines please translate them for people like me who cannot understand tamil........
From: keerthanarambham (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Fri Nov 19 05:02:06 EST 2004

yep, i cannot stand scv these days after they introduced the stupid blah blah by the VJs and DJs. Why can't they just play the songs of 70's and 80's without any interruption?
From: SK (@ 199.90.34.67) on: Fri Nov 19 10:21:55 EST 2004

While I enjoy and applaud what Mani is doing in this thread, I am unable to digest him revealing some of the inside scoops, which the concerned people have opted to keep burried, into open which may/will be hurting the fans of those concerned.
It is unethical, even if it authentic and true. There is a great sense of responsibility on the part of the historian who is narrating them to use prudence and give out only those that don't belittle the concerned artists.
From Mani's own write-up, Raja has cleverly avoided answering the question which should be an eye-opener. The exact comments by TMS could have been omitted or modified,[ as something like, "he said something insulting to IIR" or like that].
I am sorry if I am wrong!
"antharangangaL punithamaanavai!"
Disclosing only because one knows some information is not correct, unless it is something illegal or anti-social.
This is only my view.
All the best!
From: RR (@ 218.186.190.8) on: Fri Nov 19 10:23:24 EST 2004

Manisekaran: Yes, 'andhapurathil' is in MMgowla. I guess it must be his first MMGowla in films. More than the carnatic part, I think the tune and orchestration were mesmerizing in this song.

>If only these two giants had combined >their .effort the fans of tamil filom music >would have been well blessed with more
> gems. .Most unfortunate!

Ellam nalladhukke. :) TMS was past his prime then. He inadverdently paved way for the best of greats SPB & KJY to be brought out.
From: RR (@ 218.186.190.8) on: Fri Nov 19 10:37:31 EST 2004

SK: I'm sure Manisekaran will address your concerns.

On a unrelated note, I guess you are Sankar Kumar of TiS/TbI. I'm not sure you know: there's a veteran poster here Sathiya Keerthi who also posts as 'SK'. Two 'SK'-s is very confusing. Could use use a different nick, say SK@TbS or something like that? Thanks.
From: eden (@ 136.2.1.103) on: Fri Nov 19 10:46:52 EST 2004

thyAgam had this mesmerising SJ number `vasantha kAlakkOlangaL, vAnil varaindha kOdukaL' with interludes that can evoke strong emotions...especially the second one with wind instruments & strings...this song was a big hit as well, strengthening SJ's domination in TFM...

Though it's long since I've heard this song last time, it's still fresh in mind...does it exist anywhere in the web?
From: eden (@ 136.2.1.103) on: Fri Nov 19 11:02:38 EST 2004

I think those IR-TMS differences helped MSV for a time period...avoiding the IR-juggernaut as he became the `AsthAna MD' for most Sivaji movies since nallathoru kudumbam...that is till veLLai rOjA, by which time the industry has changed so much & IR got into even more commanding position to use MV as the singer for Sivaji (or MSV lost his touch so completely by then)...
From: TISK (@ 199.90.34.67) on: Fri Nov 19 11:19:42 EST 2004

I do know of these two SK's but I also noticed that Sathyakeerthi was using a lower case "sk" and that's why I opted for the "SK". But, if it is confusing, with all your blessings [and by popular demand!!??], let me be "TISK" [TiS+SK= TISK] from now on!
{sorry, I can't get rid of TiS even if it is going to be TbI]
YIA!!
From: eden (@ 136.2.1.103) on: Fri Nov 19 11:21:06 EST 2004

While `nallavarkkellAm' was a hit song (and so were a few other TMS numbers with IR), I think the biggest TMS-IR hit song was `endhan poN vaNNamE, anbuppoovaNNamE' of nAn vAzha vaippEn...This one must be among the `most times broadcast songs' of IOKS, may even make it to the top ten (as IOKS faded after the sad problems of the eighties...)
From: TISK (@ 199.90.34.67) on: Fri Nov 19 11:21:28 EST 2004

My other option was to continue with that "SSSSAV" but that was exclusively for Tis[TbI] and also involves other people and hence decided against it!
As if somebody cares!!!
From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Fri Nov 19 17:10:15 EST 2004

Manisekaran, thanks for all the anecdotes. Cant wait for the rest of the songs.

As an aside, I have often been baffled by IR's eccentric choices of singers like Mano, Arunmozhi, Jency, his own voice etc. Do touch upon these if you have any info as to why he chose these particular singers. Esp. Malaysia Vasudevan(calling him a poor man's TMS would be an insult to TMS), who probably wouldnt have been even a track singer in the 60s, got to sing about 400-500 songs for Raja, mahy of them were mediocre compositions. I have a strong feeling that Raja's choice of singers were often based on reasons not related to musical quality. But I'll let you address that if you get the chance.
From: RR (@ 218.186.190.8) on: Fri Nov 19 18:21:21 EST 2004

TISK, :) thanks.

btw, where are all our DF's IR fans? This thread is seeing only eden,vijay,TISK and couple more regular posters.
From: selva (@ 172.191.196.146) on: Fri Nov 19 18:49:28 EST 2004

RR,
Don't wake up the rest. Like me, I suppose there are many who are spell bound by the revelations by Mr Manisegaran! waiting expectantly for more without intruding.

This thread, if its intentions are true, will go a long way in curbing the fanatism that surrounds human fallibility, and bring out the essence of creativity to its natural conclusions.

Let the flow determine itself!!

Thanks
From: TISK (@ 66.57.14.197) on: Fri Nov 19 19:29:37 EST 2004

SK: I'm sure Manisekaran will address your concerns.
Still waiting!
From: OISG (@ 213.42.2.10) on: Fri Nov 19 23:51:39 EST 2004

Mr.Manisekaran,
IR-GKV association started in 1968-1969.All TMS got to sing under GKV's baton from 1968-1975 were just 2 songs.There are no songs for TMS in Sabatham,PoNNukku thanga Manasu,Piryavidai etc which came with GKV banner.

1. A duet with Manorama for Cho's Yarukkum Vetkamillai
2.Eruthamma Eruthamma for Madhavan's Murugan Kaatiya Vazhi

Could you elaborate more on the songs that IR composed for TMS that went under GKV's banner?
From: Kiran (@ 202.73.40.66) on: Sat Nov 20 00:13:25 EST 2004

1
2
3
4...
From: Prabhudas (@ 143.104.179.230) on: Sat Nov 20 18:42:50 EST 2004

Manisegaran,

Congratulations on a terrific job, I started reading the posts on this thread before Diwali and suddenly lost track, thanks again for the great narration of the background tit-bits on Maestro's early year compositions.

Yes as Eden mentioned, Thyagam 's other haunting pathos melody " vasantha kaala Kolanagal", can u write some thing about this song while we are still on discussion of Thyagam songs.
About " Bhadrakaali" song, "Kannan ouru Kai kulandai" (thanking once again God for giving me birth in a contemporary period of Maestro, what a great song....) was this the first song by KJJ with Maestro IR?

Some requests and queries

Are u planning to publish these compilations in Tamil and English at a later date?

Can we have this thread lasting beyond the thirty songs of your choice for the program, after your completion of the listed songs?

About having the video of the program itself available for rest of the TFM fans outside of Malaysia is there any way? I remember u mentioning about the copyright issue, once it was aired ( telecast) people have the recorded segments shared over the net here in US ( who are more anal than any other country about copyright violations) legally with out much hassle,
or may be you can have few more programs ( Part 2, 3 , 4 etc..) and have the malaysian TV Admin release the entire collection officially as either VCD or DVD, if possible with added interview bits from other celebreties who have worked closely with Maestro IR

About TiSK's comments, yes I am waiting to see ur comments, although I personally think there is nothing wrong in ( free press )that( Seinfeld style)

I am sure what u wrote about TMS's comments would not appear in a live or recorded radio or TV program, but that's the greatness of net and free press to express and share, as long as they are true, authentic and unaltered anecdotes and they are infact very interesting to know the othersides of the talented celebrities.

The very fact that IR did use TMS after long gap in " Thayukku oru Thaalattu" shows that IR himself was least bothered about the entire incidents apart from not able to work together with TMS and hence we as fans shouldn't look too deep into these and as long as they are informative please do continue with your anecdotes they are indeed great revelations.

waiting for the next song discussion ...
Thanks again for the great work

Prabhudas
From: RR (@ 218.186.190.8) on: Sat Nov 20 20:55:31 EST 2004

Prabhudas: I'll let you in on a secret. TFM Page, in association with Manisekaran, is planning to bring out this series (with excerpts from discussions) as a book, possibly with a cd. So I'll add a copyright clause here:

"The contents of this series are protected by copyrights (held jointly by Manisekaran & TFM Page). No part of the contents may be copied, reproduced, represented, adapted or otherwise circulated in any form or by any means whatsoever without our permission".

Subthread #6 :

From: geno (@ 61.2.32.131) on: Sun Nov 21 03:04:45 EST 2004

Dear Manisekaran,

great going!! Thanx :=)

But i hope that you would not take an extreme bias towards the great IR's side in the Vairamuthu - IR break-up, if you plan to write about that too - later! :=)

Vairamuthu - IR break-up is completely unlike the other controversies surrounding IR's career, since VM has never said even one word denigrating the genius of IR! :=)

Thanks and i'm jealous that you are gonna meet up and converse with our great legend IR ;=)))))
From: RR (@ 218.186.190.8) on: Sun Nov 21 05:04:20 EST 2004

Friends: We are trying to bring out audios of the songs being discussed.

You can listen to the latest song here:

http://tfmpage.com/cgi-bin/stream.pl?url=http://tfmpage.com/songs/nallavarkellam.rm

(no .mp3 requests pls.)
From: prabhudas (@ 143.104.179.93) on: Sun Nov 21 07:12:42 EST 2004

RR,
Thanks

Prabhudas
From: Bala (@ 68.38.80.142) on: Sun Nov 21 12:40:26 EST 2004

Mani Sir

Some questions:
1. Sir, we have heard that Raja wanted Lata Mangeshkar to sing his first song in Annakili. Is that true. Why did Raja chose SJanaki. Is it because of GKV's choice when he was an Assistant to the director to many kanada films? Can you please throw some light here?

2. Did Illayaraja had to use less of Kannadasan so as to not irk Panju Arunachalam?

3. Raja gave the music for Don's remake in Telugu where he was forced to retain the Hindi Tunes (I think NTR was the hero!). How did Raja feel about this. I had the misfortune of hearing the copied songs in Telugu in 1979/80! (the program that used to play all South Indian movie songs between 4:15 and 5:30 PM) Was shocked to hear Raja as the MD for the film...

4. Raaja sir recorded the music for Johny in Mahendran's absence, we were told. When Mahendran made Nandu, Raaja had the same situation and recorded the songs. Mahendran came back and asked raaja to redo all/some of the songs. I would love to know what would have been the original version that Raaja did by himself. Is the above incident true? If so any thoughts on the songs raaja first recorded!

Sir waiting to hear from you. Thanks once again for the excellent writeup!

Bala
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Sun Nov 21 20:50:03 EST 2004

Dear Friends,

Ther had been too many requests and too many querries. I may not have answer to all for one simple and bare truth- I am only a fan of IR, but not an authority. Kindly look at the other inputs fromreaders. They too seem to know so much on IR.

I consider IR and his music an ocean that cannot be fathomed by simple fans like me. I shall provide answer to the extent I know.

Some of these querries, such as to why IR did not use Kannadasan much would be dealt with later.

About IR composing for TMS, I was told during my visit to Prasad studio in December 1986 that IR composed for TMS under GKV, but the song was not mentioned. Otherwise I would have mentioned it.How not to mention? People in the music industry have told me that many musicians in the band have given tunes to the MDs, and the MDs had used them under their names. The original composers (band players) do not get the share of the cake, neither name. I guess this could have been the case with IR under GKV.

There was a concern expressed on me running down TMS who himself embarassed, humilated and ran don Ilayaraja on a number of occassions. What I revealed was only the tip of the Ice berg. In fact I had omitted, edited and avoided much of what I know. I am aware this is a sincere concern. I had written this in a Malaysian weekly and was accepted.

I had similar problems when I was writing on the 12 Janyary 1967 incident- Pongal eve when MR Radha shot MGR. After mentioing in passing, stopped there and urged those interested to email me to get the minute details. The TFM DF Team immediately responeded asking me to post all those details on the thread itself. So id did not provide the privy information to any one. Neither did I post on the thread.

Now my stand is this: Every writer has his own style and the readers have their own expectations. Giving the TMS- IR episode was only a small scale MATHAAPPU VEDI. I thought of exposing even stronger YAANAI VEDI to make the article more interesting.

However, respecting your concerns, I think I will stick to the facts and where controversy is involved, I shall only give an indication, on condition readers do not ask me to reveal further on the areas of those controversies. I think that is the best course of action I can take, if that is what readers want. That would be a fair deal. Is that alright with the readers?I need feedback from others as well. I shall move on after I get sufficent feedback.

Anbudan,
Manisekaran
From: MumbaiRamki (@ 63.228.165.120) on: Sun Nov 21 22:00:08 EST 2004

Manisekharan,
Can you please tell more abt urself ..this is teh first time iam meeting u in web :)
From: MumbaiRamki (@ 63.186.10.35) on: Sun Nov 21 22:31:59 EST 2004

Manisekharan
I think u are perfectly correct .......Our aim is to discuss abt raaja and at teh same time we don't fans of other singers /MD getting hurt too !!!
From: jeeves (@ 203.101.40.22) on: Sun Nov 21 23:05:27 EST 2004

Manisekaran,
Regarding IR-TMS edpisode, personally I would like to hear the truth. You may not know 100% about IR. Still if you know 80% of it
I feel it should be recorded here.

I beleive we (true TFM fans) all respect and love them for their talents not for their actions.
From: io (@ 68.231.12.84) on: Mon Nov 22 01:23:07 EST 2004

Mani Sir,
I really applaud you for being sensitive to others' concerns. Please continue with whatever is comfortable to you and feel fair enough. Anything you offer would be great interest and value to us.
From: raj (@ 203.200.216.62) on: Mon Nov 22 03:34:09 EST 2004

Mr.manisekaran, I request you to go ahead and share the details you know. It is for the fans of other artistes to take it or leave it.If they want to persist with their image of their favourite artiste, let them. But to expect that image to be established with everyone else and preventing certain facts to be published is not fair on their part.

I request you to take these in your stride and record your experiences. It is really informative and nice to know the kind of events you are narrating
From: RRA (@ 203.199.213.194) on: Mon Nov 22 04:58:30 EST 2004

Mr. Manisekaran: Reg. the TMS-IR tiff, I recall
that the song "Ellorum Paadungal" sung by SPB in Naan Vaazha Veippen was apparently originally sung by TMS and recorded. TMS in fact played both version in front of an audience (in Sri Lanka?) and asked them to decide which one was better. This appeared I think in Kumudam. IR responded saying that he had no role in it and it was the decision of the producers. At that IR recalled earlier problems with TMS. Two songs he mentioned were "Annakiliye" and "Andapuratthil".
RRA
From: TISK (@ 199.90.34.67) on: Mon Nov 22 09:51:28 EST 2004

"However, respecting your concerns, I think I will stick to the facts and where controversy is involved, I shall only give an indication, on condition readers do not ask me to reveal further on the areas of those controversies. I think that is the best course of action I can take, if that is what readers want. That would be a fair deal. Is that alright with the readers?I need feedback from others as well. I shall move on after I get sufficent feedback."
You have proved yourself to be a gentleman, Mr. Mani! I agree with your sensitivity and hope this thread doesn't digress into unnecessary comments from concerned fans . You are doing a great service to TFM history. And, I don't want that to be diluted by these sort of controversies. That's all I wanted to convey! Thanks again.
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.101) on: Mon Nov 22 11:41:31 EST 2004

Great going guys!
Is the #5 of this series `chinnakkaNNan azhaikkiRAn'? or `kaNdEn engum poomagaL nAttiyam...kAtrinilE varum geetham' or `sendhoorappoovE'...illa, illa, it will be `senthAzham poovil vandhAdum thendRal'....

On less songs by Kannadasan:
My guess is probably the health / availability of KD...I don't think Panju A, who used to be KD's assistant worked against his chances...neither can IR be pushed like that by PA for long...(AmAm, what will an assistant to a lyricist do? typist work?) In any case, let's wait for Manisekaran to reveal...
From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Mon Nov 22 12:50:16 EST 2004

Dear Sir Mani,
It was a pleasure reading your articles. I think you have addressed TISK's concerns. I guess all this happened 30 years ago, so it should not have the same pungency like some news that happened few days back. So it should all be okay.

One of the posters here mentioned about early IR's songs having MSV's influence. I am of the same opinion. I dont know when the break from MSV happened. Most probabaly it must have been very gradual. It is also possible, the break becomes very visible when IR started using the bass guitar, even with overtly classical #s.

There are quite a few songs of IR under GKV which can be easily spotted for IR's handiwork and the PB Sreenivas songs sound exactly like IR's voice and pitch. I think this is one of the reasons PBS mentions that IR has talents which many others dont recognise. TMS schooled in the indian way of singing, probably did not have the appreciation for the harmony backed style of IR's compositions.
From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Mon Nov 22 17:06:53 EST 2004

Manisekaran, I think you can state exactly what happened without probably quoting verbatim some of the artistes involved. I dont think hiding all the criticisms and just stating the praises alone here makes for interesting reading. Most of the praises for IR, we have already read elsewhere. I would be interested in reading objective assessments and criticisms like that of Seerkazhi Govindarajan's, in case you had interviewed some of those singers at that time.

Also, if you had met/talked with Purushottaman, Chandrasekhar and some of the other unsung musicians in IR's troupe please write more about them as well and their experiences in working with IR.

Subthread #7 :

From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Tue Nov 23 02:10:35 EST 2004

Dear Friends,

Thank you for the inputs. I see variations. In the course of trying to satisfy everyone I may end up satisfying no one. Let me enjoy the exclusive right of maintaining my own style.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Tue Nov 23 02:21:18 EST 2004

Eden,
Your guess is right! I dedicate the song for you. here it goes!

5. CHINNA KANNAN AZHAIKIRAAN

When Ilayaraja came into the cine field he concentrated mainly on composing folk tunes or tunes set for village settings. Therefore Raja was soon nicknamed �GRAAMATHU RAJA.� This title, unofficially conferred upon him was not to last long. There was a popularly held view that Raja would not be able to compose carnatic bases songs. There were also whisperings that reached Ilayaraja�s ears, amounting to claim that Raja would not excel even if he were to compose Carnatic raga based songs. This became a challenge, not only thrown upon Ilayaraja, but also upon Panchu Arunasalam who was Raja�s shield and shelter in the early days. They teamed up and took Tamilnadu and the Tamils across the globe by a surprising storm, that is yet to subside till this day.

Raja went to prove his critics wrong by taking a two-angled approach- firstly using the Reethigowla raga that was never attempted before by any MD. It is said that it is a sweet raga, but MDs dare not use this raga, as it was also difficult to dilute it for cinema. Perhaps those well conversant in Carnatic raga could comment on this. Poet Vaali confirms that Raja was the first to use this Raga, and he did a marvellous job on that.

Secondly Raja made sure the singer himself was one who had created a fame and name in Carnatic Music. That great person was none other than one who would for posterity be remembered as one of the greatest talents of South India- Padmavibhushan Sangeetha Kalanidhi Dr. M. Balamurali Krishna. We are all aware that Balamurali Krishna was a Kacheri singer who initially provided heavy carnatic songs. It was following the presentation of Jeyadevar�s Astapathi in Sanskrit that the audience was convinced that Dr. Balamarurali could also be a versatile singer. Following the Ashtapathi performance, many MDs in the cine field wanted to capitalise on the golden voice of Dr. Balamurali Krishna to enrich the cine songs.

When MSV and Sridhar tamed up and conceptualised an art movie for Bhagayalakshmi Productions KALAIKOYIL (1964) they persuaded Balamurali to make his debut through the all time immortal song of �Thangaratham vandhadhu veedhiyile, oru thalir meni vanthathu therinile � with P. Suseela. MSV and TKR did their very best to bring out their best brain for composing this lovely song. Then KVM too made his mark by persuading Balamurali to sing �oru naaL pothumaa� in the Sri Vijayalakshmi Pictures THIRUVILAYAADAL (1965). In 1966, following the split with MSV in Pathini Pictures AAYIRATHIL ORUVAN, TK Ramamurthy made Balamurali sing �Arulvaaye nee arulvaaye�in Sri Venkateswara Cinetone�s SAADHU MIRANDAAL. In the year 1967, S. Rajeswara Rao too used Balamurali in Veerapan & Co�s BAKTHA PRAHALADA where he sang �Aadhi Anaadhaiyum neeye� and �Chinna Chinna kanne� with S.Janaki. In 1969. TG Lingappa used him in SUBATHINAM with the song �Putham Puthu Meni.� In 1977 Shanker Ganesh made Balamurali sing the song �Raamanum Neeye Krishnanum Neeye� in UYARNTHAVARKAL. In 1977 Kunnakkudi Vaithiyanathan too used him in APN�s last movie NAVARATHINAM.

So various MDs composed songs for Balamurali, and all these songs had some distinctive trademarks in terms of carnatic base. In all these songs, the MDs and the lyricists consulted with Balamurali during the making of the songs, not only out of respect for Dr. Balamurali, but also to ensure that the song turns out to be of his type.

CONTINUES.........
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Tue Nov 23 02:22:16 EST 2004

Now coming to Ilayaraja, he too needed an authority and a rich voice to match his carnatic composition. He had to use Balamurali in order to drive home the point that he too had knowledge of carnatic music. Raja and Panchu Arunasalem sat and consulted with Balamurali in composing Chinna Kannan Azhaikkiraan. The film may have been a disappointment, but the song was an instant hit. One version is by Dr. Balamurali and the other is by S. Janaki. While both are melodious, Balamurali�s version stole the thunder! That song brought name recognition for Raja. The other song of Balamurali in Kavikkuyil is �Aayiram kodi kaalangalaaga.�

Chinna Kannan Azhaikkiraan was the first Reethigowla raga song in the Tamil Film industry. Raja attempted again in a Sridar film called Oru Odai Nathiayaagirathu. The song is �Thalayaai Kuniyum Thamaraiye� by SP Bala and one Rajeswary.

Chinna Kannan Azhaikkiraan became a satisfactory piece to Dr. Balamurali, Panchu Arunasalem, Ilayaraja and the fans. It was only after the release of this song that many critics were dumbfounded. It then dawned upon many that Raja did not enter the cine filed handicapped, or with knowledge of folk tune alone. Raja had already been tutored by TV Gopalakrishan of Chennai, through whom Raja became well grounded in Carnatic music.

Now the readers may want to know comments by authority on carnatic music.

BALAMURALI KRISHNA:

Dr. Balamurali Krsihna, who had been leading in the sales of carnatic based cassette albums has this to say about Raja:

�Ilayaraja can easily pass out as the MD of this century. He is always in research mood and strives to present in a new form. He leads in rendering a new approach to music based on Carnatic music that he has mastered. As far as I know there is no one else of his young age who equals him in being so energetic and resourceful. Apart from his immense ability, he has some inner power within him that moves. He is incomparable in so far as orchestration is concerned. He is able to compose music that is easily understood and enjoyed by both elders and children, not leaving out the music vidwans as well�

Dr. Balamurali ahs sung under so many MDs, but only Raja has received such accolades from this great vidwan.

SEMMANGUDY SEENIVASA AIYER:

�Ilayaraja has an in-depth knowledge on carnatic music. He also possesses immense ability. That is the reason as to why he is able to understand the intricacies of carnatic music and compose music that is enjoyable to both literate and the layman. It is not an easy task to compose music that is enjoyed and acceptable by all quarters. He is able to dilute even the most difficult form of music. My own opinion is that Raja should make some efforts to enable the music fans enjoy even the difficult forms of music.�

Raja�s triumph did not end there with this song of CHINNA KANNAN AZHAIKIRAN.

To make sure the critics were silenced forever, in a later day he even performed a Kachery in the gracious presence of the carnatic music authority Semmangudi Seenivasa Aiyer at the Naaratha Gaana Sabha. Semmangudi Seenivasa Aiyer conferred upon RAJA the coveted title of �NAATHA BRAHMA�. What else could be a better recognition for Raja? One may even remember Raja even discovered a new raga called PANHCMUGHI in 1994.

The issue that Raja was incapable of composing carnatic based songs was put to rest almost as soon as it surfaced. CHINNA KANNAN AZHAIKKIRAAN served as a preamble to several other carnatic-based songs that were composed by Raja in later years.

Here is the song: Listen to it!

Chinna Kannan Azhaikkiraan
Chinna Kannan Azhaikkiraan
Raathaiyai poongothaiyai
Aval Manamkonda Ragasiya Raagathai paadi

Kankal Solkinra Kavithai
Ilam Vayathil Ethanai Kodi
Kankal Solkinra Kavithai
Ilam Vayathil Ethanai Kodi
Enrum Kathalai Kondadum Kaviyame
Puthumai Malarum Inimai
Antha Mayakkathil Inaivathu Uravukku Perumai

(Chinna Kannan)

Nenjil Ullaadum Raagam
Ithuthaana Kanmani Raadha?
Un Punnagai Sollatha Athisayama
Azhage Ilamai Rathame
Antha Maayaninn Leeleayil Mayanguthu Ulagam

(Chinna Kannan)

So, this is yet another landmark song for Ilayaraja.

Can the fans provide more inputs please? Let us have more discussions.
From: RR (@ 192.122.134.249) on: Tue Nov 23 03:28:17 EST 2004

I'll try to write something on the carnatic side, from my kelvi gyanam. Experts pls add to it.

Riti gowla was long considered a difficult raagam to dilute, for its complicated swara passages (e.g. ascent is S G2 R2 G2 M1 N2 N2 S, D2 can be touched only in descent) and its closeness to famous ragas like sriranjani. IR was the one to show it's not really so. Now, ARR ('azhagaana raatchsiye' - a fun take on this raga), Yuvan ('theenda theenda'), Anand (background score in 'Sakthi'), etc have all started using it. What a trendsetter.

Other IR songs in this raga: 'raaman kathai kelungal' (sippikkul muthu), 'meettaadha oru veenai' (poonthottam).
From: Kiran (@ 202.73.40.66) on: Tue Nov 23 05:36:09 EST 2004

Mr.manisekaran....

...great song....thanks a lot song....it reminds me of the classical song "Raama kanavemiraa..." in telugu....its tyagaraja or something like that .......
From: keerthanarambham (@ 161.114.64.75) on: Tue Nov 23 07:58:43 EST 2004

Dig
Mumbai Ramki,please go through the archives if you want to know about our beloved Mr.Manisekaran. He is a rare veteran with abundant TFM knowledge , He is back with us after a long hiatus
From: murali (@ 61.247.247.230) on: Tue Nov 23 10:40:52 EST 2004

Dear Mr.Manisekaran

I want to know more and more about Raaja sir. There are thousand of fans like me eagerly going through this thread.

In many fields our great grand parents have kept many things as seceret. That is why our generation could not find out the mystery about great marvels of the past like... The Great Thanjavour Temple by Raja Raja Cholan. And many more for eg: great wall of China ...this list goes on...
sir I sincerely feel that many facts about our Raaja will not be known to my generation unless people like you write here.
Sir please continue your great work and stop not for any reason.
What I believed all these days as mystery on Raaja has now been made clear to me as facts, by your writings.

Sir Please clear us and let there be no mystery any more .
Let everone know the inside of genius.

Congrats on your great work please continue sir.

with luv n regards
mully
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.101) on: Tue Nov 23 10:45:58 EST 2004

Thanks Mani Sir, for this extraordinary song!

It's funny to recall now how I thought of BMK during my young days...that he's a comedy singer...(the loser in ThiruviLaiyAdal to pAttum nAnE of TMS:-)), may be a classical version of AL Raghavan etc...all influenced by the APN film...just another example how the impressionable young minds can be influenced to believe things that are not true...

I think the instruments used in the interludes are different for the BMK and SJ versions...the BMK version having the soft(&sweeter) ones while the SJ version has some ghaNeer stuff...Oh how I love those flute pieces...

An evergreen song!

Subthread #8 :

From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue Nov 23 10:53:10 EST 2004

RR, thalayai kuniyum thaamaraiye? I consider it a better attempt than Chinna kaNNan(Raja has just used the ascent as the first line :-) )The catchiness/hummability of the tune though is unrefutable.

Manisekaran, good writeup. As for Semmangudi and BMK's quotes, Did you take it out of some other existing site or is it from your own source?
From: RR (@ 218.212.113.234) on: Tue Nov 23 11:22:22 EST 2004

vijay: you are right. (haven't we discussed this before :) My point was just that 'chinna kannan' started it all.
From: RR (@ 218.212.113.234) on: Tue Nov 23 11:23:47 EST 2004

btw, 'thalayai kuniyum' was already mentioned by Mani sir. That's why I skipped it.
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.101) on: Tue Nov 23 11:57:34 EST 2004

It's interesting to note that 4 out of 5 landmark songs of this thread, related to early days of Raja, probably had Sivakumar on the screen. That sounds remarkable...and also brings a question to my mind, did he have any influence on the music of his films at all? (I'm 100% sure he was no MGR...however, it's hard to believe he wasn't involved at all...)
From: Anand (@ 83.216.154.253) on: Tue Nov 23 16:27:56 EST 2004

Dear Mr. Manisekaran,
Its a pleasure all these wonderful facts about Ilayaraaja. One query I have is this; which is the first song of ilayaraaja where he had used western orchestration? Did he have any say in the beginnings in the compositions or was he influenced like today's MDs by playing what is popular?
From: k (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Tue Nov 23 17:59:04 EST 2004

chinna chinna kannan to some extent has the grandeur (chinnak kannan azhaikkiraan) of the thriruvilaiyAdal song with the tenderness of IR melodies (radhaiyai poongOthaiyai ..).
Another interesting the pallavi and the charanams are introduced completely the instrumentals before the vocals start. I guess the idea is to make the listener familiar with the tune and surprise him/her with the majestic voice of BMK.
From: prabhudas (@ 143.104.69.192) on: Tue Nov 23 19:23:14 EST 2004

Thanks, Manishekaran avargale,
What a great song, unfortunately due to my lack of classical Music Knowledge, I never knew what raaga it was based on till somebody brought this raaga topic when 'Mudhalavan" was released and somebody immediately pointed out IR had done this long ago in "kavi Kuyil"

Kiru,
my God, I just had the same thought as I was reading Mr. Mani's writing on this, about the instrumentals preceding the Pallvi and charanam in this song.

Small dig,
Any telugu movie song of Dr. BMK ?
There is great song by " Hamsalekha" in Kannada by Dr. BMK in the film, "Muthina Haara" for people who are interested,

And finally , still curious if KJJ's first song with IR was " Kannan oru Kai kuzhandai"

Prabhudas
From: RR (@ 192.122.134.249) on: Tue Nov 23 21:19:59 EST 2004

Prabhudas: Dr. BMK's TeFM songs (cut-pasted from net :)

---
> Could someone please chronicle Dr. Mangalampalli Balamuralikrishna's
> career in Telugu films as a singer?

I.
As composer he didn't work for any pre-1980 (the period I am 'somewhat' better informed of) Telugu films, I guess. Infact I can recall only;
"hamsageete" the famous kannaDa (musical) film, for which he worked (as co-MD).

To my knowledge (rather the first song I have heard of him) his first film song is from: jayabhEri (1959). Followed by another number in naagayya's "raamadaasu" (1964, a film started in mid/late 50s, and stretched over long years). Then came "uyaala jampaala" (1965, singing: ETilOni keraTaalu ...).

In G. Ramineedu's "palnaaTi yuddham" (1966) he sang a good number of songs and verses; for the role: baalachandruDu (quite an unusual selection! G sang for brahmanaayuDu, PB played (and sang for) the role : naagamma). Also in
"karNa" (dubbed from Tamil) he has atleast 2 songs.

II.
mounamE nee bhaasha O moogamanasaa (from 'guppeDu manasu')
paaDanaa vaaNi kaLyaaNigaa (from 'mEghasandESam', picturised on MBK. )
Sreeraama jayaraama seetaaraama (from 'mutyaalamuggu')

Telugu Film Server listing:

jayabhEri ---- 1959
nartanaSAla ---- 1963
rAmadAsu ---- 1963
dorikitEdongalu ---- 1965
uyyAla jampAla ---- 1965
palnATiyuddham ---- 1966
mutyAla muggu ---- 1975
guppeDu manasu ---- 1979
mEgha sandESam ---- 1983
---

No more non-TFM discussion pls.
From: RR (@ 192.122.134.249) on: Tue Nov 23 21:28:47 EST 2004

Anand: You may want to read Song #2, in the archives:

http://forumhub.lunarpages.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=426
From: Bala (@ 68.38.80.142) on: Tue Nov 23 22:05:47 EST 2004

Eden

Wait for the 7th one, it is sure going to 'En kanmani un kadhali...' from Chittukuruvi, another Sivakumar Starrer (I am positive that the 6th one is Chithrai Sevvanam from KVG).

Sivakumar waS so lucky that he had 3 great hits in 76/77, Annakili, bhadhrakali followed by Aatukkara Alamelu. With such great hits he was considered a big star then and he signed on to innumerbale films. Thanks to the gaining of superdom by Rajini/Kamal, Sivakumar lost his star-power (How long can luck last??)..

Sivakumar had more films to come with great songs by IR even though almost all the films bit the dust.
Muthal Iravu, Kadavul Amaitha Medai, Kannan oru kai Kuzhandhai, kavikuyil, Poonthalir, Chittukuruvi (Rosappoo Ravikkaikari is an exception) to name a few.

Eden sir, to say that Sivakumar may have a say in music is like saying Mohan or Ramarajan had a say in the music of their films. Sivakumar is far better than the other two, but still he was just lucky to have IR and his great music

Bala
From: k (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Tue Nov 23 22:14:01 EST 2004

Prabhudas,
Birds of a feather flock to the same website and to the same discussion thread :-)

Also, notice the immediate start of the song with a single note. It is like a master batsman making a single in the first ball he faces with a good shot..no 'mattai pottu' steady aagi ..appuram run addikkira business :-) (I hope get my tamil cricket slang) It would be nice if people compare this with 'oru naal pothuma' for orchestration purposes. Notice the trailing notes at the end of each line. There is also bass guitar backing at the start of each line. Even if IR uses a tabla, his songs will sound 'much fuller' than the previous 'old-fashioned' MDs. There will be something behind the tabla, you dont know until you hear ones without them (though oru naal has a violin following the vocals).
From: prabhudas (@ 143.104.69.192) on: Tue Nov 23 22:18:36 EST 2004

Thanks RR,

Sorry for the dig,

I will stick to TFM particularly IR songs in this "mother of all threads about Maestro" as Mr. Manishekaran has a lot more to offer
Happy Thanks Giving to all
Prabhudas
From: RR (@ 192.122.134.249) on: Tue Nov 23 22:44:08 EST 2004

>Notice the trailing notes at the end of each
>line. There is also bass guitar backing at the >start of each line.

kiru: that was sharp. Didn't notice before. Wonderful! Thanks for pointing it out.

btw, can you drop me a mail? was out of touch for a long time.
From: jeeves (@ 203.101.40.22) on: Wed Nov 24 04:05:08 EST 2004

In 1976, when Ilayaraaja captured the imagination of the people of TamilNadu, India with a refreshingly virile folk musical sore for his first film, Annakili, he was dubbed a folklorist. But with every successive film a new genre of music was explored and new possibilities within the genres were brought to the fore. In the film KaviKuyil (1978), Ilayaraaja composed a brilliant number using the raga RithiGowlai (Song Chinna Kannan Azhaikiran), which was rendered by the Carnatic exponent Dr. M. Balamuralikrishna. The important feature to note, however, is the second version of the same song in the same film, sung by playback singer S. Janaki. Within the melodic part remained purely RithiGowlai (Song Chinna Kannan Azhaikiran - Second Version) the strings section played music in the European Baroque tradition. In a sense, this song was the precursor of the path Ilayaraaja was to take later in his musical explorations. Throughout the song, Carnatic music was not permitted to dominate the Western strings nor was the Western music allowed to drown the Carnatic raga. In the pluralistic domain of Ilayaraaja�s music, there was to be a harmonious coexistence of several genres.

written by A. S. Panneerselvan
(Article published in frontline, September 10, 1993)
From: RR (@ 192.122.134.249) on: Wed Nov 24 04:52:54 EST 2004

jeeves: true, the fusion was wonderful. That he took Ritigowla for this experiment was something great.
For the benefit of all, I'm adding an audio link to this song. Listen to the SJ version.
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.101) on: Wed Nov 24 11:09:43 EST 2004

Well, Bala, it was just my `loud thinking' about the Sivakumar influence...However, it's quite possible that Raja created certain numbers keeping the on-screen person in mind. With Sivakumar being a next-door-man-kind and also with roles of that nature, Raja worked out some `soft' numbers on him...again me `wondering'...

I'm not a big admirer of Sivakumar...but always felt he has a `tolerable' screen presence and performs to an `agreeable' degree...even occasionally good, as in the case of `sindhu bhairavi'...can't bracket him along with the likes of Mohan, Ramarajan etc.
From: JeyaBalamurugan (@ 143.115.159.56) on: Wed Nov 24 13:33:55 EST 2004

Eden, i second your words about Sivakumar.Undoubtedly, he is an actor of huge potential.Every song that Isaignani composed for this versatile actor,still stands out for its uniqueness.Paadum Vaanambaadi from Naan Paadum Padal is one such song which defenitely needs a screen presence of an actor like Sivakumar.Same kind of situation has been graced by him in Ilanjolai Poothatha. Talking about the influence of the actor in a song, I don't belive Veteran actor Shivaji ever dictated to the MD about what he wants.Rather he influenced the MD to match his repertoire. Sameway, Isaignani would have been influenced by Sivakumar's acting and that made him to churn one of his all time best for this actor.Just my two cents.

Subthread #9 :

From: k (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Wed Nov 24 13:49:41 EST 2004

Yes, fans should check out the Janaki version. Thanks RR. It is possible to discuss one song of IR for quite a long time, when the lyrics are good it is a treat (like in Ethilum iruppaan song in bhArathi, which had a thread of its own).
What makes the thread interesting it is just not the music..it is that Mani is a master storyteller !!!

(eden..ennappa ithu 'next-door-man' ..girl-next-door thaan kElvipattirukkEn..san francisco typea irukku :))
From: Anand (@ 83.216.154.253) on: Wed Nov 24 17:20:03 EST 2004

Thanks, RR. Wonder how i missed out on that one !!! Can't wait for the next song !!
From: RR (@ 202.156.2.8) on: Wed Nov 24 19:47:06 EST 2004

k: SF type, *rotfl*

It'll be interesting if someone can post the movie situation for the SJ version. This song is almost like a BGM.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Wed Nov 24 19:49:03 EST 2004

Dear friends,

I have gained veRy much from your inputs. I am happy that this has become a collective effort of all of us. We are all gaining knowledge and no one can be singled out as the leading contributor. We all have our share.

Murali,
Yesterday I was in ASTRO VAANAVIL to discuss about another great musical recording. Also have made arrangements to meet up with Ilayaraja. Hope the meeting would materialise. Then you can have more information.

Vijay,
Semmangudi and BMK stories are taken from the book of my late friend V. Selvaraj and have also cross checked with my counterparts in the cine industry.

Anand,
I am coming to the full western song- Coming soon.

Bala,
I do not intend to cover all his songs, as I am not a competent authority in any way. I have mentioned this. You should be knowledgeable on music in order to comment wholly and adequaltely. I have written black and white that I am a "Kazhudai with no sense of karpooram smell." In fact I am heavily dependent on nowledgeable people in this thread.

Prabhudas,
This is the mother of all threads on IR? Certainly not. It is one of the siblings I should admit.

k.
You are right. It is the story behind songs that makes the song discussion lively.

DEAR ALL,

Please be informed that I do not intend to cover all IR songs. I would only cover those which to my humble mind are landmark songs.All of you could continue from where I stop. Raja is like an ocean liner and I am only a small raft beside him. How do I qualify in any way?
From: RR (@ 192.122.134.249) on: Wed Nov 24 22:51:25 EST 2004

Here's one more kannan song from the movie, 'aayiram kodi' sung again by Dr. BMK. This is probably IR's first ragamalika in TFM.

Click here to listen to it!

aayiram kodi kaalangalaaga
aanandha leelayin naayagan neeye

(aayiram kodi)

kaatrinil uyiraaga kalanthaaduvaai
neeril alayaaga nindraaduvaai
maargazhi maatha malargalil aadum
vaasamum neeye varnamum neeye

(aayiram kodi)

naadhamum neeye geethamum neeye
naanilam kaakkum paranthaamaa
paarkkadal amuthaaga vaanavar virunthaaga
moovulagam aalum vendham neeye

(aayiram kodi)

aathmavin porulaaga geethayile
arul kaatti sudarveesum paathayile
ulaginai naalum nalvazhiyotrum(?)
kaaladi neeye maadhavan neeye

(aayiram kodi)
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Wed Nov 24 23:20:58 EST 2004

6. SEVVANTHI POO MUDICHA CHINNAKKA

No song from 16 Vayathinile could be singled out for credit, as all songs are equally good and form interesting material for discussion. So let me cover a few songs in a go.
That was the 13th movie for Ilayaraja. Years later Raja was asked which was the film from which he derived full satisfaction. Ater a moments reflection Raja said that that was the film where he was able to manifest and exhibit his full imagination in composing music. Bharathiraja too had commented that 16 Vayathinile provided best musical results.

As for the film, that was the first film to be shot outside studio- in natural settings with no make up for the everyone. The lyrics too reflected naturalism set in village surroundings.

Raja has toured several villages in South India, and had sung in many of the concerts. Perhaps there are very few villages on which they had not set their foot. The Pavalar Brothers- Varatharajan, Bhaskar, Amar Sing (gangai amaran) and Gnana Desigan (Ilayaraja) claimed �MaAttu vandi POgatha Oorukkellam Engal PaAttu vandi Ponathundu.�

Wherever Raja went he made sure he picked up folk tunes, folk based lyrics and took note of the musical instruments played in the villages. He kept all these as well guarded secret, hoping to use them one day. He was the first to bring the entire range of the folk tunes, lyrics and even instruments to Kodambakkam. The movie where he used them in full range was 16 Vayathinile.

The film ran for 30 weeks. It was selected the best film by the Tamilnadu Government.

Now three songs:
S.B Bala was bookd for recoding the song in this movie. However, as Bala was not feeling well, he himself recommended Malaysia Vaasudevan. So Vasu had to sing the songs in this movie.

SENTHOORA POOVE

This was a killer song. It is quite difficult to grasp how Ilayaraja could use guitar and western orchestration for a village tune and still create a hit out of it. (guitar is discussed in another song) Gangai Amaraqn boasts that following the success of this cong, many other producers wanted the pallavis of theirs songs to start with names of flowers.

This was a trend setting song for a short period, as there were already songs starting with names of flowers prior to this. Perhaps this song revived the need to start songs with names of flowers. Camerawork was a strong plus point for this song. (Gangai Amaran also has said that there is no such flower as Senthoorappoo. It is an imaginary flower, and challenges anyone to produce that flower!)

The vinyl record also recorded sky high sales. Sivaji Ganesan himself has reportedly remarked that Senthoora Poove was his favourite song for 1977.

S. Janaki was bestowed national award for best playback singer for the song Senthoora Poove. The song was surprisingly very popular in Russia as well.

Click here to listen to it!

sendhoorappoovae sendhoorappoovae jillenra kaatrae
en mannan engae en mannan engae nee konjam sollaayoa

(sendhoorappoovae)

thenralaith thoodhu vittu oru saedhikkuk kaaththirundhaen
kangalai moodavittu inbak kanavinil naan midhandhaen
kannip paruvaththin vannak kanavidhuvae
ennai izhukkudhu andha ninaivadhuvae
vannap poovae thenral kaatrae ennaith thaedi sugam varumoa

(sendhoorappoovae)

neelak karunguyilae thennanjoalaik kuruvigalae
koalamidum mayilae nalla gaanap paravaigalae
maalai varum andha naalai uraiththidungal
saalai vazhi engum poovai iraiththidungal
vannap poovae thenral kaatrae ennaith thaedi sugam varumoa

(sendhoorappoovae)

CONTINUES...
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Wed Nov 24 23:22:01 EST 2004

SOLAM VETHAIKAYILE
This was the debut for Ilayaraja as a playback singer. Malaysia Vasu was booked for the tile song. But as he did not turn up, Ilayaraja had to immediately compose and sing. Gangai Amaran wrote the lyrics within 15 minutes and Ilayaraja sang the song with no difficulties.

In fact Raja had been singing from his childhood days. When he followed his Pavalar brothers, he used to sit at the back of the stage and sing in female voice. The first song that Raja ever sang was a M.S. Rajeswary song from the film THAI PIANTHAAL VAZHI PIRAKKUM. The song is �Mannukkau Maram Baaramma marathukku Ilai Baarammaa.� The audience could not believe it was a male child singing the female song. According to Raja himself, many used to even place betting. Later Raja sang many of P. Suseela�s songs. When raja came to adolescent age, there was a break in his voice- makarakkattu they say in Tamil. Thereafter raja stopped singing and concentrated in playing harmonium and guitar.
After a long time, raja sang for the first time and recorded his song in 16 Vayathinile. That was the beginning of many sweet beginnings in store for lovers of Raja�s voice.

Click here to listen to it!

AATTUKKUTTI MUTTAI ITTU
The first song that Kannadasan wrote for Raja�s music was in the movie Palootti Valaratha Kili, and the song is �Kannodu Kannu� sung by S. Janaki. Kannadasan has inserted a line in the song:� Vaa Raja Vaa� Ilayaraja feels that it was a sign from Kannadasan, welcoming raja into the cine field. However, Aattukkutti Muttai Ittu was quite different. Barathiraja and Ilayaraja went to see Kannadasan in Kavitha Hotel. There they saw the poetic ability of Kannadasan. He was able to provide alternative words within fleeting moment, only to the astonishment ant amazement of Ilayaraja and Barathiraja. This incident was recalled for several years. S. Janaki was proved to be a versatile singer. She gives voice an old lady. Ilayaraja was credited for bringing out this talent from S. Janaki. Janaki too was appreciated for this song. This song is a break song for Malaysia Vasudevan as well.
This is the song: Click here to listen to it!

Aattukkutti Muttaiyittu Kozhikutty Vanthathunnu
Yaanaikkunju Sollakkeittu Poonaikunju Sonnathamma
Kathaiyilley Saami Ithai Kaanuthu Bhommi;
Ada Ithumattunthaana Innum Irukkuthu Saami!

Koottumedai Rasaavukku noothiraNdu Pondaattiyaam,
Nootirandu Pondaattiyum Vaattumuttai Poathathamma;
Pattatturani Athuley Pathinettu Peru,
Pathinettuppeirkkum Vayasu Irubhathiaaru,
Motham Irubhathiaaru- Aangh,
chinna kuttigaLin mEl aaNai
indha sattigaLin mEl aaNai
idhu vaLLuvanin EttiluNdu parambarai paattiluNdu
kadhaiyillai magaraasi!

Kaakkaiyilla Seemaiyiley Kaatterumai Meikkaiyiley
Kaakkavachu Neram Paarthu Paakku Vacha Aasaimachan
Santhaikku Poana Naan Saatchikku Varava,
Sambhantham Panna Enakku Sammathanthaana?
Ada Innum Konjam Paarungalein,
Enn Kannimanam Keilungalein,
Ada Yendi Intha Sangathinnu Kekkureenga Kekkureenga,
Pazhaiya Nenapputhaan Peiraandi
Pazhaiya Nenapputhaan, mMMm
Pazhaiya Nenapputhaan Peiraandi
Pazhaiya Nenapputhaan

Kittappavin Paattai Keittein
Chinnappavai Neriley Paarthein,
Sotta Sotta Varuguthamma
Sangeethama Peruguthamma,
Medaikkuppoana Enakku Eedilley Ponnu,
Paadinaninna Naan Noottuley Onnu;
Enn Thiramaiyai Kaattathumaa,
Rendu Sangathiyai Poadattumaa,
Ada Thatharina thatharina,
Thatharina Thatharina
Thatharina thatharina,

In this song Kannadasan says Kittappavin Paattai Ketten. In an interview he said he never saw Kittappa in person or listened to his songs.

SEVVANTHI POO MUDICHU CHINNAKKA
This is the song that I selected for the Show. This is the song where Ilayaraja had used most of the village musical instruments in his early days. The members of the musical band almost became ecstatic. The audience started to dance. The band did well, but at the end of the show, the band members told me that they would have done better if only all the instruments used by Raja had been made available to them. They were not able to identify some of the instruments used.
Click here to listen to it!

Bharathiraja who capitalised on Ilayaraja�s music, had commented that Raja was very much ahead of him in scoring music for his movies. Even in subsequent released the movie made huge profits. This film boosted folk music and enhanced the taste for folk tunes. Whereas in the past music fans loved to listen to folk songs at random, this movie made fans seek such music. Folk music became a rule of the day rather than an exception. Raja set the new trend.

16 Vayathinile is one of the best movies and a crowning victory for Ilayaraja and Bharathiraja. Certainly a movie that took Tamilnadu by storm!

Over to all of you for further indepths.
From: raj (@ 61.246.255.3) on: Thu Nov 25 01:00:01 EST 2004

Sevvandhi poo mudicha chinnakka was sung by MV & PS

a nice song

Particularly the portions "Kovil ammanukku velakethu ...."

Both have sung beautifully

Subthread #10 :

From: Madhu (@ 202.54.137.87) on: Thu Nov 25 01:30:03 EST 2004

Mani Sir, it's true that this movie took TN by storm. I remember the song "Senthoora poovae" brought the national award for S.Janaki. The orchestration was simply superb for that song. I came to know that a 12-string guitar was used for the song.
From: thumburu (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Thu Nov 25 05:39:31 EST 2004

Ayiramkodi is also a nice song which went unnoticed in the "chinna kannan" and "kuyile kavikuyile" wave. RR , Iam able to make out only the "chakravaham" part in the stanza "naadhamum neeye geethamum neeye " . Iam not able to make out the other ragas.
Is the starting "ayiram kodi" in MMG?
or Saveri?
From: thumburu (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Thu Nov 25 05:41:54 EST 2004

Sorry, Mani sir, the kavikuyil hang over is a bit too strong for me to overcome so soon. Please consider my prev posting as a digression :)
From: Nevis (@ 62.215.3.51) on: Thu Nov 25 06:47:50 EST 2004

The first gold and platinum disc in tamil film industry...
It created waves during a time period when ABBA, BoneyM and RD Burman were invading Tamilnadu..

Surprising to note that a 12 string guitar was used in Senthoorapoove song. Do they normally play this type of guitar in orchestras or is it a rare commodity ?
From: Madhu (@ 202.54.137.87) on: Thu Nov 25 07:46:31 EST 2004

I think 12-string guitar is a rare commodity as it needs special skills to play. It is used when a heavy arpeggios are written by the composer.
From: RR (@ 202.156.2.8) on: Thu Nov 25 08:30:47 EST 2004

thumburu: my guesses are MMgowla, chkravagam,mohanam.
From: RR (@ 202.156.2.8) on: Thu Nov 25 08:44:44 EST 2004

Friends: I have linked audios of the songs. Go back via 'old responses' to listen to them.
From: Bala (@ 68.38.80.142) on: Thu Nov 25 10:40:40 EST 2004

Mani Sir

Thanks (I wanted to correct myslef on number 6. I realized I forgot Senthoora poove, what a majestic number! But it was too late yesterday)

Anyway, wonderful write-up. DId Alangodu Somu write 'Manja Kulichu..' another peppy number in the movie. So did the movie have 3 lyricists (KD - Sevvandhi & aatu kutti, GA - Senthoora Poove and Solam Vidhai and Alangud Somy)?

Thanks once again. I am now uanble to guess your 7th? Is it
a. Kizhakke Pogum Rail?
b. Mullum Malarum? (who can forget Senthazam, Nitham Nitham, Adi Penne and Ramen Andallum)
c. Darling.. Darling (PRiya for its first stereo recoding...)?
d. Ennadi Meenatchi (Elamai Oonjal Adukiradhu..)
e. Still hope "En Kanami" from Chittukuruvi and 'Chithra Sevvanam' from KVG makes the 7th ...

Year 1978 was a sad year. No Tamil film qualified for National Award (I thought Mullum Malarum easily qaulified, however the National Award committee thinks otherwise!.)

Bala
From: Anand (@ 83.216.154.253) on: Thu Nov 25 17:16:03 EST 2004

"Sevanthi Poo Mudicha Chinakka.." Isn't it amazing how the dialogues slowly blend into the flute bit and then flowing into laughter, joy and culminating into the claps and then the chorus.... A simple yet brilliant flow of moods....And despite the folk tune, the violin orchestration flows in the background through the first interlude.... Really brings a feeling of joy when you listen to these songs.. Wonderful choice, Mr.Mani !
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Thu Nov 25 19:30:21 EST 2004

Thumburu,
NO digression on your part. We are still in the same grouping.

Bala, you are coming close. I have differentiated between popular songs and landmark or milestone songs of Raja.That is the only catch in this discussion thread.

All songs are by Gangai Amaran, except Aattukkutty Muttai Ittu.
From: G.Ragavan (@ 61.16.168.141) on: Fri Nov 26 07:56:12 EST 2004

Hi Manisekharan, nice write up. Sorry for the late entry. I am a great fan of IR's early songs, and a discussion about those songs here. Keep it up. Will come regularly.

I just want to make two points.

1. "Chevandhi Poo Mudicha" wonderful song it is. It is one of my all time favourites. While listening it brings out the happiness instantly, making us to feel elated. Nice songs. Due credits to the singers are missing in your writeup, when the credit to the singers are elaborated for other songs. Please ensure the samething will not repeat again for any other song.

2. While bringing out the greatness of IR's music endowements, we shouldnt bring down the due respect and opinion on any of IR's music companions. It is better to conseal the facts in a decent way. Otherwise, there are high possibliities of digression in degraded way by fanatics. Such things are equivalent to showing disrespect to IR.

Manisekharan, You are doing a great job. I am awaiting more eagerly.

Regards,
Ragavan
From: senthilv.com (@ 69.148.86.79) on: Fri Nov 26 14:31:35 EST 2004

I just discovered the thread. Great read Manisekeran and everyone!

I had to rewind a bit. sorry!

A trivia: I think the violin piece in the second interlude in CHINNA KANNAN AZHAIKIRAAN of Janaki's has a very striking resemblance to the famous starting prelude of "Adi Raakamma Kaaiya Thattu" violin piece.
(SJ version 2:50 to 3:00)
http://musicindiaonline.com/l/26/s/movie_name.4357/
Any1 agree :)
From: senthilv.com (@ 69.148.86.79) on: Fri Nov 26 14:48:56 EST 2004

I know Manisekaran is hosting the show but I think it is a great opportunity to explore Raaja�s unique capability as a film composer and how his compositions scaled new heights in film music.

I very much differentiate between a music composer and a film music composer. After all most of his music is film music :) Although Raaja�s background score is wildly discussed, his talent in deriving full inspiration from the situation, its elements, the mood, it musical motifs, and the conflict itself is very rarely discussed.

I believe Raaja has reached Himalayan heights as a film music composer which is very less explored even by musicians. So I want to throw my 2 cents in that aspect/angle to the songs that will be posted by Manisekaran. I�m bound to make some wild speculation, mistakes and assumptions. Please correct me when I go wrong :)

I�ll stop my analysis if you someone has serious objections (especially Manisekaran :)
From: senthilv.com (@ 69.148.87.254) on: Fri Nov 26 18:02:07 EST 2004

SENTHOORA POOVE

Situation: A *tender* teenage girl is *searching* for her unknown lover all over the village, *looking* for him, *longing* for him and *asking* for him. She converses with flowers, birds, breeze etc� asking them about her unknown lover�s whereabouts and requesting them to help her to get him on her way.

Conflict: She bitten by love-bug and is in a hopeless case. Her hidden *vulnerability*.
Irony: She has the lover she�s searching (chappani) right under her fold. She�s yet to realize it.

Raaja�s dramatic choices in the song:

1) Theme -- *Search* is the theme of the song and it dominates every musical aspect of the song --from the tune to orchestration, to rhythm, to beat, to ornamentations etc. But the tune also makes sure the *longing-ness* and *vulnerability* of the character is also exposed. Some musical elements in second interlude express strong vulnerability.

Musical elements:

2) Violin -- From orchestration standpoint, Western classical sounding violin orchestration is chief participant in the *search* theme. It is effectively introduced, repeated, played up, played down, heightened and finally nailed.

3) Guitar -- The guitar piece is direct musical manifestation of lyricist word Senthoora Poove (Flower). In general, it stands for all flowers. The piece also sets the *mood* of the song so quickly. It also ornaments and embellishes the teenage girl with *flowers* throughout the song. Perhaps, Raaja liked the idea of flower setting with flowering (budding?) emotions of the girl or perhaps, a direct inspiration from Bharathiraja�s situation description. What amazes me is where does the *flowering* stop and *searching* start in this simple piece? The answer is they co-exist! This is magic!

4) Flute � A direct inspiration from the lyricist line *neelak karunguyilae* but symbolizes most birds described in the song and for the topper�for the character herself (Character name is Mayil -- meaning Peacock). How apt? Since this flute piece also brings out her vulnerability. A mild masterstroke! (Same technique used in the song �Kuyil Paatu� from En Raasavin Manasulae)

5) Beat � All rhythmic beats symbolizes, augments and intensifies the *search* theme.

Introduction: WOW! All the musical elements used in the rest of the song are introduced completely in the prelude (intro) itself. It is the gist of the song and almost all of them symbolizes and dramatizes the *search* theme. Either, they play the same notes or play the same idea with some musical variations and variety.

Transitions: A special mention to transitions. Although all the musical elements stand for *searching*, the is done with pin point precision bringing out the intended feeling throughout the song. Incredibly, there is no monotony, even if the same idea is played with variations. The supreme sign of mastery over the medium by Raaja.

The transition also keeps the girl character in motion throughout the song giving a flowing energy. Like a visual transition showing a legs running fast, spooked wheels of motor bike rotating fast, to a rubber tyre rolling at high speed and showing the tyre belonging to a plane taking-off in sky with a bird in forefront and the topper-- the bird flies. Just an example, I felt but it is not an analogy to the song.

Raaja�s musical transition in the song flows like a stream from the flowers, to the girl, back to the flowers, to her physical movement, her running legs, the narrow alley, rough but beautiful terrain, plants, birds, breeze, and obviously to her emotions running inside her. This makes the song so unique and wonderful to listen and watch in the film.

In the end, the song not only manages to express the *search* and *longing* feeling of the character but also brings across her tenderness and vulnerability. Raaja as a composer not only celebrates the character�s feelings but also makes his tune and musical instruments participate in the *search*.

So, it is no wonder Raaja felt satisfied or utilized! I�ve listened to his old songs before this and I can argue that this song is first situational song to fully use the situation, its elements, the mood, its musical motifs, and the conflict to a mind boggling level.

Please listen to the song again and give me your feedback and criticism.

Trivia: I love the musical imitation (echo) of * thennanjoalaik kuruvigalae kuruvigalae* (music which follows the line) in the second interlude. Even this piece (idea) is introduced in the prelude (intro)
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Fri Nov 26 19:28:27 EST 2004

Ragavan,

Thank you for your inputs. I have taken note of your points. In some cases I deleberately give more credits to Raja, where I feel he is the supremo in the success of songs. In some other cases I may emphasise on the vocal strength of the singers. In cases where you are tend to disagree or feel singers should be credited, please post your thoughts. Afterall it depends on which angle of the prism we are looking at. Different angles give different reflections. That is the very purpose of the discussion. Even in my introductory notes I had said fans can agreee, disagree or ignore my points.

Once again, thank you for the rich inputs.

Senthilv.com.
I have not objection to your postings. This is a discussion forum. Everone has his/ her role to play. It is up to the acceptability of other readers.

Subthread #11 :

From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Fri Nov 26 19:47:16 EST 2004

7. EN KANMANI EN KATHALI
Ilayaraja had all along wanted to introduce western techniques in his music. The first of these according to his own statement, was the counterpoint technique. During his visit to Singapore in the later 1970s, Raja purchased electronic computers for enhancing his music. It was with this technique that he was able to excel in the usage of counterpoint technique. Counterpoint is not new to Tamil cine music. It has been used for several decades. The only difference is that Ilayaraja brought it out its full form. He introduced it in Chittukkuruvi, and the song is �En Kanmani En Kathali�

It took Ilayaraja a long time to explain to Vaali. Vaali could not grasp in the beginning. Now let me see how I could explain.

Counterpoint is a 14th century western technique, often employed to add listening pleasure. It has all along been used in Tamil film songs as well, but not in Carnatic and Kachery Songs.

In counterpoint, you �counter� one music with another. Simply put, it is one tune on top of another. In other words, when you mix more than one melody together, it becomes what is called counterpoint. That is to say a song is divided into two parts. In one song you have one tune with one lyric, and in the other song there is another tune with another lyric. When sang separately they appear like different songs. When combined they give another meaning.

Counterpoint may take, basically two forms:

1. One sings in one tune and the other sings in another tune
2. One sings in one tune and the other hums in another tune

In many cinema songs, while one sings a song, the other partner sings the same lyrics in another tune. All MDs have employed this.

MSV and TKR brought it out clearer in the song Anru Kandathum Athey Nila from the film PERIYA IDATHU PENN.

While P Suseela sings in the stanza
Kathal Romeo Kanda Nilaa
Kanni Juliet Chenra Nilaa, TMS sings the same lyrics, but in a softer melody and modified tune.

Again, when TMS sings:
Pavai Laila Paartha Nila
Palaivanathin VannaNila, P .Suseela sings the same lyrics in a softer and different tune.

That was a novelty then.

In other cases while one sings, the other hums in the background. There are far too many of this. I am sure all of you know this.

Another close approach could be seen in the song Madhana Maaligayil in RAJPART RANGADURAI.

However, it was Ilayaraja who expressed the most and the best in the Counterpoint technique. There are two songs to his credit.

CONTINUES...
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Fri Nov 26 19:48:01 EST 2004

The pioneer song is of course

En kanmani En Kathaili in SriVishnu Priya Creations CHITTUKKURUVI (1978)
Click here to listen

To make the movie fans understand the technique even better, we see the hero and the heroine singing in the bus. Counterpoint is provided by the ghost shadows of the hero and the heroine.

SP B: En kanmani un kaadhali ila maangani
unaip paarththadum sirikkinradhaen
sirikkinradhaen
naan sonna joakkaik kaettu naanamoa nee nagaichuvai Mannanillaiyo

(Dialogue: NALLA SONNEL PONGO)

PS: en mannavan Un kaadhalan
Enai Paarthathum
oraayiram kadhai solgiraan kadhaisolgiraan
kadhai solgiraan
ammammaa innum kaetkath thonrumo nee rasikkinra Kanni Illaiyo

SPBala : en kanmani

SP Bala: Iru Maangal Paesumboadhu Mozhiyaedhammaa
Pirar kaadhil kaetpadharkum vazhiyaedhammaa

PS: Oru joadi saerndhu sellum payanangalil
uravanri Veru Illai Gavanangalil

SPB: Ilamamayil
PS: Arugamayil
SPB: Vanthadum Velai Inbam Kodi Enru Anubavam Sonnathillaiyo

(Dialogue: INTHAMMA KARUVAATTU KOODAI MUNNADI PO!)

PS: en mannavan Un kaadhalan
Enai Paarthathum
oraayiram kadhai solgiraan kadhaisolgiraan
kadhai solgiraan
ammammaa innum kaetkath thonrumo nee rasikkinra Kanni Illaiyo

SP Bala: en Kanmani
(Dialogue: THENAMPETTAI SUPREMARKET, IRANGU!)

SPB: Medhuvaaga unnaik konjam thodavaendumae
Thirumaeni engum viralgal padavaendumae
PS: Adharkaana naeram innum varavaendumae
adaiyaalach chinnam onru tharavaendumae
SPB:Iru thoalilum manamaalaigal
PS: kondaadum kalam Enru koodumenru thavikkinra thavippennavoa

SP BALA. En kanmani un kaadhali ila maangani
unaip paarththadum sirikkinradhaen
sirikkinradhaen
naan sonna joakkaik kaettu naanamoa nee nagaichuvai Mannanillaiyo

PS: en mannavan Un kaadhalan
Enai Paarthathum
oraayiram kadhai solgiraan kadhaisolgiraan
kadhai solgiraan
ammammaa innum kaetkath thonrumo nee rasikkinra Kanni Illaiyo

SP Bala; En kanmani

In another song in PAGAL NILAVU- Poomaalaiye Thol Seravaa, Raja has gone a scale higher to improvise the counterpoint technique. Here two singers blend in two different tunes and two different lyrics and occasionally coming together.

Click here to listen

poomaalaiyae thoal saeravaa (2) - aengum iru
ilaiya manadhu (ilaiya manadhu)
inaiyum pozhudhu (inaiyum pozhudhu)
ilaiya manadhu (dheemthana dheemthana)
inaiyum pozhudhu (dheemthana dheemthana)
poojai maniyoasai poovai manadhaasai
pudhiyadhoar ulagilae parandhadhae

(poomaalaiyae)

naan unai ninaikkaadha naalillaiyae
thaeninaith theendaadha poovillaiyae (thananaa)
naan unai ninaikkaadha naalillaiyae (ennai unakkenru koduththaen)
thaeninaith theendaadha poovillaiyae (enrum ilangaadhal mayilnaan)
thaenthuli poovaayil poovizhi maansaayal
thaenthuli poovaayil (thananaa) poovizhi maansaayal (thananaa)
kanni ezhudhum vannam muzhudhum vandhu thazhuvum jenmam muzhudhum
kanni ezhudhum vannam muzhudhum vandhu thazhuvum jenmam muzhudhum
naalum theriyaamal kaalam puriyaamal kalaiyelaam pazhaguvoam anudhinam

(poomaalaiyae)

koadaiyil vaadaadha koavilpuraa
kaamanaik kaanaamal kaanum kanaa (thananaa)
koadaiyil vaadaadhaa koavilpuraa (naanum thoongaadhu aenginaen)
kaamanaik kaanaamal kaanum kanaa (naalum unaiththaedum enmanam)
vizhigalum moodaadhu vidindhidak koodaadhu
vizhigalum moodaadhu (thananaa) vidindhidak koodaadhu (thananaa)
kanni idhayam inru udhayam enru theriyum jenmam puriyum
kanni idhayam inru udhayam enru theriyum jenmam puriyum
kaatru sudhi neetta kaalam jadhi kootta karumbugal edhirvarum anuguvoam

(poomaalaiyae)

It is only by listening to these songs that one could get a glimpse of what counterpoint is all about.

Again it was in 1980 that raja was able to fuse counterpoint and many of the wweestern orchestration into carnatic music. The film that stole the show was AARILIRUNTHU ARUBATHU VARAI. The song is Kanmaniye Kaathal Enbathu. It is said that Raja was the first to have done this experiment in Indian movies. He uses of Nadaswaram, thavil, flute, electric guitar and other western instruments along with echo effect, and counterpoint humming. I consider this song a novelty by itself.

Click here to listen

Now, let us all discuss. Can we have more experts on counterpoint throwing more light?
From: Jeera (@ 4.14.118.203) on: Fri Nov 26 20:55:23 EST 2004

Mani sir and others

Somebody asked for what is the first song that raja implemented western type interludes. Can we safely say that to be 'Senthoora Poovae'?
From: Genesis (@ 64.136.27.226) on: Fri Nov 26 21:28:32 EST 2004

Mani Sir, (Or some one esle)

If you have time - can you please explain how "Counterpoint" technic is used in "En Kanmani" song.

Sorry, I am having difficulty in understanding the concept.

Thank you.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Fri Nov 26 21:53:09 EST 2004

Jeera,
I have no information on that. I am sure someone will help all of us out.

Gensesis,
Counterpoint is one melody on top of another. Raja took a long time to make Vali understand. There is only one way you can understand. Kindly listen to the song En kanmani and you will definitely come across one melody on top pf another. That is the most glaring part in that song and there is no way anyone could miss it.

TFM TEAM,
Could you provide the song please?
Mani
From: RR (@ 218.186.186.20) on: Fri Nov 26 23:36:53 EST 2004

The audios are up!
From: RR (@ 218.186.186.20) on: Sat Nov 27 00:14:19 EST 2004

One of my favorite counterpoints is in the song 'ninaivo oru paravai'. In the pallavi of this song, the counterpoint takes the 'one singer sings and the other hums' form. It's so brilliantly done that I feel like teleported somewhere everytime I listen to this piece :)

Genesis: you may want to listen to this and see how seamlessly two different melodies blend to give a new experience. Here's it is, just for you

http://tfmpage.com/cgi-bin/song.pl?id=mani-7.4
From: S.Senthil Kumar (@ 203.101.39.75) on: Sat Nov 27 00:30:59 EST 2004

I think " en kanmani " song is just different from others. Its not just a counterpart but trying to be a counterpart!. Its above that. If you listen to it no where the singers singing in couter as like in the case of the songs like "poo malaiye" or even did a humming like "ninaivo oru paravai". And you can see here in this " en kanamani " song its not the other singer to try that couter singing of the first singer but the same first singer!! SPB starts "en kanmaiiiii..." its going... and suddenly an another SPB (!) starts " enai kadhali...." now before finishing the first one take it " ila mangani".... its nothing but heaven! may be its a well usuage of echo i think by the former echo owner!
From: t (@ 24.163.67.22) on: Sat Nov 27 03:05:08 EST 2004

i am not taking credit away from the song here, but i too feel that the technique used in "en kanmani" is not really a counterpoint...i don't think there are two overlapping melodies..okay there is an overlap between the "Neeeeee" of "En KanamaNeeeeee" and "En Kadhaleee"...but the "Neeeee" is just one note...i don't think we can call it a melody, can we???

just creating the effect of 2 SPBs & 2 Suseelas singing at the same time was probably a novelty, given the recording techniques in 1977...

the vocal melodies in Poo Maalaiyee seem to overlap a little more...but are there instances where the overlap is more significant and the melodies are more elaborate too - and both the melodies should have lyrics...the ninaivo oru paravai type counterpoints should be more common since one of the two melodies does not have any lyric associated with it...

also i don't know if anybody has noticed that the voices in "Raaja Raajathi Raajan Intha Raaja" all sing slightly different melodies in some parts of the song...or am i just hallucinating :-))...

Subthread #12 :

From: Venkatesh (@ 212.72.11.68) on: Sat Nov 27 09:03:40 EST 2004

Mani sir,
In a concert, IR explained the counterpoint like this, in simple terms.
He made a singer sing the lines 'pon thaan nee' in a particular tune.
Another singer sang 'manjam arugil varuvayo'
in another tune.
Then, they combined the tune and the words alternately, which gives the lyrics 'pon manjam thaan arugil nee varuvayo'. IR said this is how he explained it to Vaali.
From: Venkatesh (@ 212.72.11.68) on: Sat Nov 27 09:06:27 EST 2004

typo..
they combined the tune and words and sang alternately..
From: senthilv.com (@ 68.88.76.69) on: Sat Nov 27 12:07:42 EST 2004

T:

"Raaja Raajathi Raajan Intha Raaja" -- I think, this is more of "polypony" rather than counterpoint. Raaja wanted to create the effect of a "group" singing the same lines. He has also used the same technique in the song "Das...Das... Chinnapa das das" from Kadalora Kavithaikal

"Etho Moham" from Kozhi Koovudhu is another beautiful counter point example. The tune and chorus counterpoint runs throughout the song.
From: venus (@ 4.8.201.59) on: Sun Nov 28 12:54:56 EST 2004

If observe the lyrics it seems to be interesting

SP B: En kanmani un kaadhali ila maangani
unaip paarththadum sirikkinradhaen
sirikkinradhaen
naan sonna joakkaik kaettu naanamoa nee nagaichuvai Mannanillaiyo

It can be split into

1. En kanmani ila maangani sirikkinradhaen
sirikkinradhaen (take the words 1,3,5 in from the song you will get this line)

2. un kaadhali unaip paarththadum sirikkinradhaen
sirikkinradhaen (take the words 2,4,6 from the song you will get this line)

naan sonna joakkaik kaettu naanamoa nee nagaichuvai Mannanillaiyo

The whole song expresses the meaning and if you take alternate words still they from a meaningful sentence. (this applies to PS section also)

If you hear we have two melodies(3 words each)
and main melody with 7 words in it.

It seems that IR wanted lyrics to have the same behavior of Counterpoint as well. I guess this was what IR trying to express to Vali. Whatever effort went in, the result is really very good one.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Sun Nov 28 19:26:37 EST 2004

t,

En Kanmani is certainly a counte4rpoint technique- as explained by Raja himself.

Vengkatesh,

Yes Raja explained this at a concert, using Surendran, and at another time gave an interview on this novelty.

Senthilv.com

Raaja Raajathi Rajanintha Raja is noether counterpoint not polypony. It is totally another technique. I shall come to it later.

Mani
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Sun Nov 28 19:27:22 EST 2004

t,

En Kanmani is certainly a counte4rpoint technique- as explained by Raja himself.

Vengkatesh,

Yes Raja explained this at a concert, using Surendran, and at another time gave an interview on this novelty.

Senthilv.com

Raaja Raajathi Raajanintha Raaja is neither counterpoint nor polypony. It is totally another technique. I shall come to it later.

Mani
From: raj (@ 61.246.255.3) on: Sun Nov 28 22:54:31 EST 2004

Mani sir

the dialouge should be "NANNA SONNEL pongo!!

En kanmani -- is my all time fav SPB-PS song !!

Great lyrics by Vaali and picturisation too was good ( with min technology)

Sivakumar -Meera travelling in a bus

Song is like Sivakumar singing to sivakumar and
Meera singing to Meera..

A great Song in all aspects
From: RR (@ 192.122.134.249) on: Mon Nov 29 05:01:25 EST 2004

1. if you want to post comments on older songs, pls go to the archive (link on top of the page). There you'll find the previous 6 songs/episodes indexed as separate threads. Post your comments on the appropriate thread.
2. Some have reported that the audios are interrupted/buffered a lot. If many feel so, I'll reduce the bit rate of the audios (lower quality). Let me know if you have any problems listening.
Of course, other comments/suggestions are also welcome. Thx.
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.154) on: Mon Nov 29 11:52:33 EST 2004

IMHO, SJ would have made the song ('en kaNmaNi')much better as the SPB-SJ combo creates magic with such duets...Though I love this song, I think PS lacks that `extra something' to throw in for such songs...
From: Bala (@ 68.38.80.142) on: Mon Nov 29 21:33:39 EST 2004

Eden Sir

IMHO, Janaki would have been a great choice had there been no hearty laugh that is required from a female singer. Susheela does a much better job doing the laugh. S Janaki does not come out well (either she would sound too young like 'Kanna Nee Enge' or sound too old )

Bala
From: G.Ragavan (@ 61.16.168.141) on: Tue Nov 30 03:27:30 EST 2004

>>From: eden (@ 136.1.1.154) on: Mon Nov 29 11:52:33 EST 2004
>>IMHO, SJ would have made the song ('en kaNmaNi')much better as the SPB-SJ combo creates magic with such duets...Though I love this song, I think PS lacks that `extra something' to throw in for such songs...

Hi Eden, I dont think there was something missing in PS's voice (particularly that song). SJ is a good singer. PS is also a good singer and she had done a justice to that song.
From: raj (@ 61.246.255.3) on: Tue Nov 30 04:21:49 EST 2004

Bala had rightly mentioned the laugh .. which PS had done brilliantly
From: YAY (@ 61.1.201.133) on: Tue Nov 30 07:44:52 EST 2004

(Msg deleted by RR. Pls post in 'BGM' or other appropriate topic.)
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Tue Nov 30 19:10:42 EST 2004

13. ORAMPO RUKKUMANI VANDI VARUTHU
(I have revised the numbering)
I had said that Kettele Angey from Badrakali was the first Raja song to meet opposition. Now we come to a song that was not only openly opposed, but also banned and ultimately called for a procession to lift the ban. This song, to my mind has to be remembered as a landmark song.

This is a song that was openly attacked, and banned .by All India Radio. This, along with �Unakenathaane Innerama�, as well as �Thennamarathila Thendraladikkuthu� from Lechumy, written by Gangai Amaran were banned in All India Radio. Gangai Amaran had to write in to AIR station to get them to lift the ban.

The Orambo song from Ponnu Oorukku Puthusu became an instant hit and drew much criticism and opposition as well.

There is a clear message hidden in this song. When Ilayaraja came to Madras for cine chances he was rebuked, teased and stepped aside. It was only through the grace of the Almighty, with the instrumentality of Panchu Arunasalam that Raja made it into the field. Even after entering the cine field, for the first few years he continued to meet with untold sufferings, criticism and opposition- some open, and others very subtle. Many of the MDs, Produces, Directors, Financiers and Lyricists too did not give open support to Ilayaraja. Most of them thought Raja was just one of those new comers who would not last too long. The common word they all collectively used then was that Ilayaraja would be side washed- �Oram Poividuvaan�

Ilayaraja and Gangai Amaran took note of this state of affairs in the cine field, and were waiting for the opportune moment to rebut. Ilayaraja took a softer approach while Gangai Amaran was quite vocal.

By the time SP.V.Films Ponnu Oorukku Puthusu came in 1979, Raja was already holding the fort and was reigning supreme. He was somewhat an uncrowned king in the cine music field. Other MDs were sliding into oblivion. When the movie Ponnu Ooorukku Puthusu was produced, Gangai Amaran wrote song in which he made Ilayaraja the subject matter. The lyrics had to be read in between the lines to grasp the intended message.

Orambo Rukkumani Vandi varuthu

(Give Way, Ilayaraja�s Paattu Vandi is coming)

Vangada Vanthanam Pannungada
(Come and pay respects to Ilayaraja)

Vanthu Intha Vanidiya Thallungada
(Come and push this song cart of Ilayaraja)

Palaiyam Pannapiuram
Chinnathaayi Petha Magan
Pichaimuthu Eriye Varandoi

(Pannapippuramm is Raja�s village. Chinnathayee is Raja�s mother)

Then a line comes:

Kizhakke Pora Rayilai Kooda Munthi varuven
Ellaraiym Kootttiye Varuvendoi

The film Kizhakke Pogum Rayil just completed its 52 weeks run in Tamilnadu. It implies Raja was ready to break even that record.

While the cine field was asking Ilayaraja and his associates to give way and get out, this time around, it appeared that Raja was asking those critics to clear the field and get out!

Those opponents who read in between the lines and got the message could not digest the pungent heat generated by this song. They could not openly band the song, but conveniently found other reasons to force the Tamilnadu government to ban the song.

The quoted vulgar meanings, which I do not wish to state here. They also alleged that the song was an insult to the police force, and hence to the Government.

In Tamilnadu the constables are called ETTAIYA. The constables used to swing their batons during heavy traffic congestion and shout �ORAMPO!� asking the crowd to give way to vehicles. In this song a line goes:

Ettaiya Roattu Mele Nikkiraaru- Nikkiraaru
Avarai Konjam Othungachollu- Othungikkanga! Othungikkanga!

They alleged that the song was hitting at the constables. It is quite true that when the song was out the ordinary by passers were singing this song in the presence of police constables, with intention of irritating them.

To counter the ban by All India Radio, a group of Ilayaraja supporters went on a procession along Mount Road in support of the song. By this time MGR was already the Chief Minister. He was very sympathetic towards Ilayaraja. In fact MGR had wanted to act in a movie called UNNAI VIDA MATTEN. Ilayaraja was booked as MD. Pooja was also performed. But MGR stayed with politics and the movie never was produced.

With all the sensations, controversies and opposition, the song became more popular. Those were the days when songs mixed with dialogues were seldom written. But here came a song of that nature- this time with dialogues spoken along the the village roads- close to the heart of the village folks. Ironically the song was well accepted in both urban and rural areas.

The band members said they were surprised to see Raja using western musical instruments in village folk tunes. They were ale to identify electrical guitar playing a prominent role in this song. True enough, Raja experimented fusion of western and folk tunes in this song.
Click here to listen
From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.175) on: Tue Nov 30 20:46:36 EST 2004

There are different kinds of counterpoints and it gets very difficult to understand this completely as it becomes too technical. But I do think En Kanmani can be considered a counterpoint some way or other. Actually, the song starts with a counterpoint. But I think more than this the song became famous because it was the same voice that got repeated or started before one ended. In sound engineering terms, this was called 'seconds'. I think IR was the first to use this technique at that point of time.
The song was a novelty at that time and surely can be considered a landmark.
As Mani mentions, poomalaiyE is a much better example of counterpoint.
The term polyphony is a much more general term than counterpoint. It just means multiple (poly) sounds (phony). Indian music is considered monophonic (only one voice), whereas western classical is polyphonic (multiple voices, voice does not necessarily mean human voice, but any instrument).

Subthread #13 :

From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.175) on: Tue Nov 30 20:49:10 EST 2004

Mani sir..you are going from 7 to 13 ..enna pudhu vidhamana padhukkala :-)
OrampO ..sure I remember all the controversary and noise over this. Fun song. I wish Gangai Amaran writes for IR now (when he can write for ARR).
From: mythila (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Wed Dec 1 06:21:12 EST 2004

No Kiru, I would say GA's mediocre lyrics pulled down many of IR's stupendous tunes.
He simply used to juggle with maane, thene, ragam, thalam, kalam etc ex anandha ragam from PP
GA was a good music composer and he should have just stuck to that
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.154) on: Wed Dec 1 11:14:30 EST 2004

I remember `kEttELE ingE' as well as 'Oram pO' being banned from broadcast by AIR...though there was nothing explicit or offensive (even by the rigorous standards of my parents:-)) They did find air time in IOKS, though.

However, these songs became extremely popular thanks to the `loud speaker culture' of TN, esp. `kEttELE' was played repeatedly in all kalyANam -kadhu kuththu's...By the time 'Oram pO' song was released (much before even the movie was released & the song helped the absolutely trash movie to have a decent run), the `tea-shop-music' culture was quite established. Hence this song had additional advantage / media for becoming popular. (I remember writing about the `minor Ilayaraja maNa migu coffee bar' in the Virudhunagar Bazar in some thread, whose grand gala opening with big speakers coincided with the release of `Oram pO' song and one can hear the shop repeatedly play this song many times each day)...

While the `loud speaker culture for film songs' was primarily a DMK-MGR influence, the tea stall / bus as a strong media for film music in TN was mainly influenced by IR. (This was partly helped by the limited affordability of the people of TN those days to own a gramaphone or cassette player...which was later offset to a great degree by affordable Panasonic's / recording shops /cheap cassettes etc. However, with the popularity of TV, helped by the affordable BPL-TV's and cable, those panasonic's are practically collecting dust in most homes)...

I think, if someone writes a history of `cultural influence of cinema in the lives of TN people', there has to be a separate chapter for IR & his music...
From: Genesis (@ 136.1.1.33) on: Wed Dec 1 12:32:56 EST 2004

1) I think there was a reason why "kEttELE ingE" was banned in AIR. This song set in "record dance" tune used "Brahmin" dialect. Naturally Brahmins were offended and at that time AIR was dominated by Brahmins. It is no surprise they decided to ban it.

2) "Oram pO" was much of a nuisance song. I guess it became popular with eve-teasers - thats why AIR banned it. I agree this song does not contain anything explicit or offensive. I seriously doubt there was plot by anti-IR gang to ban this song.
From: prabhudas (@ 143.104.69.192) on: Wed Dec 1 15:35:28 EST 2004

Digression on counter point example

'poonthalir aada " song from "Panner Pushpangal" one of the few authentic counter point song, which I leraned from this forum thro' Kiru , the song which was discussed many times and I remember listening to the song coming back to forum to read more details about counter point, often to understand it properly.
Venkatesh, which is the song ( movie?)u have mentioned about IR quoting on the stage as counter point?

Manishekaran, if this is not mother of all thread about Maestro, I am even more happy because I have a belief either u or some one else will come out with the genuine "Mother of all threads about Maestro" at a later date :-)) ..

Also, while you are discussing the song with anecdotal incidents /associations/influence etc...could you please write, as deemed appropriate, about any major/significant roles/effects of the BGMs in the films of the songs being discussed, for example
I happened to watch 2 of the first seven movies in the last year ( Bhadra kaali, 16 Vayadinile), I couldn't recognise a full length grand BG score for "Bhadrakali" despite some good situations but however the BGM was way different for the time and standards for that age ( being a third movie for IR), but alas... in the mere 13th movie the excellence in the great BGM in 16 Vayadinile was just mesmerizing ( I have the entire movie's BGM clips ripped in some 115 pieces) Perhaps teh first movie with a theme based BGM for each charecter , the "Kuyil" theme, "Chappani" theme and " parattai "theme" etc..

waiting for more...
prabhudas
From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Wed Dec 1 16:49:13 EST 2004

Prabhudas, did you read senthilv.com's (welcome to the thread Senthil) description of one these songs. I can still remember his description of ennullE ennullE pala minnal ezhum song.
Mani has a much more 'janarankamana' style of writing. He uses little bit of technical things to give an idea. Most people wont be able to digest more than this (unlike people like us who are avid fans of IR).
I want to make sure Mani does not cheat us out on those 5 songs :-)
mythila..GA is surely not my standard for a great lyricist..but I will take him anyday over pazhani bharathi..I dont know why IR uses him..Just a few flashes of creativity in a complete song.I think it is not worth it.
Among the existing lyricists ..pulamaipithan is my favorite. Would like to meet him and give him atleast a simple..humble gift one day. He is the last of the Masters when it comes to writing lyrics..
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.154) on: Wed Dec 1 16:59:15 EST 2004

'sAmakkOzhi, Ey, koovudhammA' -a gem of a song from poNNu oorukku pudhusu (IR-SPS)...this has three stanzas and I used to love the interludes then...the song has a brilliant prelude as well, which brings in the mood and ambience of a silent night in a village...(I get the same mood when I listen to 'ooru sanam' of MTK too)...

One reason for Raja's huge success is this `mood creation'...not just the hip-hoop-hurrah jolly mood / fun mood alone (which is the only thing most MD's of today are capable of generating), but a whole variety of them...This may also explain to some extent his elevated BGM capabilities...

Can some knowledgeable DF'er throw light on what contributes to this `mood creation'? I read in the classical IR series that IR even used rAgams usually supposed to create sOga situations for jolly times etc. How does the transition happen? Or is it the nature of the instruments used / instrumental combination / thALam or the kind of percussion used (soft or hard, slow or fast, mild or loud etc.) the main contributor? Or is it my personal sensation to specific songs (by responding to the original situation when I heard first or some old stimuli)? Is it the long-term-effect of being cast into stereo type by the society (that you hear certain things under certain situations / conditions, like thappu for death in villages, thavil/nAgaswaram for marriage etc.)?

In any case, in creating the feel of a real life situation through mere sounds, RAJA eppavum RAJA dhAn...
From: prabhudas (@ 143.104.69.192) on: Wed Dec 1 20:04:16 EST 2004

Kiru, was it "Sendhoora poove " song description by sendhilv.com?, yes I did read, very nice description.

Sendhilv.com, we didn't see u after that, please do write more.

Eden,
I think I started a thread sometime back about prelude , interlude history in TFM evolution, it's adaptation in films from MKT period till now, the new dimensions given by IR, the mood creation etc... etc.. for some reasons there was no responses at all in that thread, I had started it as a general thread in TFM history as a whole with IR's influence Post annakili period, I am very much interested to revive that thread after Manisekaran's completion of this series.
I always wondered IR's ability with this extra ordinary preludes and interludes for different song situations, because, I am still under the impression, the directors/producers with the lyricists when the sit with MDs for discussing the tunes for the various situations, never get exposed to the final preludes or interludes till they are recorded with complete arrangements and orchestration and till when they really start picturising them (and of course spoil many of them) given this, most of the times during the discussions it's probably just the tunes either with plain Harmonium ( most of the old MDs, or KeyBoards by the current MDs) and vocal hummings by the MDs which are given to the directors and producers, if so what on the earth transpires Maestro IR during this period from initial tunes to the stage of completing the song, the variety of instruments usage/arrangements/orchestration which totally takes us to a state of trance in many of his songs, which no one except him sees till it comes out as a finished product , I don't know if he ever discusses this aspect with even his sons.

About "mood creation", I am writing my experience, I am not a knowledgeable DFer BTW,
u mentioned "personal sensation " to a specific song, this has happened to me and many others whom I know personally and in TFMDF, and long time ago many had discussed in some relevent threads,
the memory imprints in brain beyond infancy and childhood is little different because of the rapidity with which brain grows during early age, plasticity of the brain, as we grow older, strong and indifferent visual, aural and olefactory sensory inputs have a tendency to associate with the physical events, mental state and even our social life events to give a long lasting brain imprints which many times evoke the original association every time u are exposed to similar stimuli, of all these I think aural stimulus (from Raja's mesmerising melodies, mood depicting interludes, preludes) dominates especially because of the repitition of these aural stimuli around the same single time very frequently.

One ex. every time I hear "Meendum oru Kaadhal kadhai" songs specially " Adhikaalai nerame", immediately it triggers the entire meomory sequence of events, first separation from home to hostel life as a teenager, ragging sessions in my medical college hostel, first time usage of then newly released Ponds soap, listening to Maestro's song in senior's sleeping Cassette recorder after cleaning the tape head and roller with after shave solution, etc etc.., to the extent, when ever I use Ponds soap again ( this time olefactory), it triggers similar memory events.

We hope one day Raja himself writes about his thought processes, inspirations, real life events triggering his output with a different dimension, his regular Thiruvannamalai visits and post effects at his subconscious level to better his performance without his knowledge etc... etc

Prabhudas
From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Wed Dec 1 20:55:11 EST 2004

Well..I think I do remember some of what some 'knowledgeable' DFers posted here about mood creation. There are many ways it can be done - for example a happy song can be converted to sad by just changing the tempo. But I also read that IR has managed to do this without even changing the tempo, just by his orchestration but maintaining the main tune same. I dont remember the details now. Also, in the way a song is sung, in raajavin ramana maalai, you can see IR change his bhAvam for one 'casual, carefree attitude' song. Earlier, Srinath and another guy had an argument over PS and Janaki and I think what Srinath was trying to get at is Janaki's bhAvam, IR gave more importance to this ..he tried to convey the emotion of the character on screen. This is more easily identified in SPB's 'gunashtai's while singing. But the female vocalists also added their interpretation in many songs.

Actually, todays MDs can do any type of song. There are quite a few capable people around. But I think they are not that successful in giving a specific character to it, but I might be biased :-). I am told that IR's favorite scale is E minor (dont ask me what it is :-)) E minor tends to give a 'melancholic' twist to a song (you guys probably remember it now). ARR's favorite is G Major or something which gives a 'bubbly happy' twist to a song. Even some romantic songs of IR will have this 'melancholic' twist. This is what they say gives a personalised character to the composition. For eg. if Mona Lisa's face had a big smile like says, MGR passport photo, it is quite unlikely that painting would have been this popular (BTW, I only saw thick layers of bullet proof glass on Monalisa :-))

BTW, IRs preludes are very memorable..my wife does not claim to know music, but she can tell a song as soon as she hears the preludes !! while I am almost close to getting it, she is belting out the tune and I am supposed to be a IR fan !!

Subthread #14 :

From: vijay (@ 68.51.134.219) on: Wed Dec 1 22:49:38 EST 2004

GA is a decent lyricist but as he often mentioned he was invited to write mostly for dappanguthu and club dance songs by IR. Oorambo-apart from the controversy it created its a very ordinary composition IMO
From: Venkatesh (@ 212.72.11.68) on: Wed Dec 1 23:12:01 EST 2004

Prabhudas,
That lyrics was not from any song. It was just created by IR to illustrate the musical effect of counterpoint. I am surprised how he created it spontaneously on the stage.
From: selva (@ 195.10.45.138) on: Thu Dec 2 05:19:39 EST 2004

Moody, meloncholy, nostalgia or an undertone of sadness, call it whatever - I am convinced that music is capable of stimulating emotions through the neurochemicals in the brain centers for emotions. Dissertations have been done on this topic.

When my son was 4 months old, he used to have a 'thathumbal' during the prelude (strings section after the initial Sax) for 'april mayile'. His face would automatically change expression, his eyes would moisten and his lips will contort as though he was going to cry. It was not like a wail that babies of that age do, but a very quiet inner unknown experience of sadness. This expression would automatically change into joy, smile and giggles when the tempo in the prelude picked up and vocals started. He used to sit on my lap while i played the song on my PC. I have recorded this with my webcam. My wife and i were surprised, disturbed by this phenomena - the effect of music on the emotions of babies and were caught in two minds as to whether to expose him or not to meloncholic music.

I wonder what you guys think of the prelude in that song, but I think it is pure magic, cannot figure out how he thought about a prelude of that nature for a song that was meant to be a jolly song. Anyway, my son is now three years old and comes to me for a cuddle when I play 'ooru sanam' and jumps around shouting 'this is my favourite song' when I play 'Sa Re Ga Me' from Boys.

Sorry for continuing on the digression by eden, kiru, prabhudas about 'mood creation'...
From: mythila (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Thu Dec 2 07:47:35 EST 2004

Easily "solai kuyile" is the bst song from "Ponnu oorukku pudhusu". This song , set to Madhyamavathi/Brindhavana Saranga captures the beauty of dawn . The opening humming, mridhangam percussion, SPS's flawless rendition, flute ,violin , guitar interplayed in the interludes, a harmonium like piece in the first bgm[IR's late 70's rural songs had that kind of usage ] and not to forget the apt lyrics( who is the lyricist, btw?) all these factors make this song unforgettable till date.
I don't mind IR doing Ramarajan or rajkiran village movies if he promises to give a song like "solai kuyile" or "senthoorapoove".
It is ages since I listened to this and it would be nice if anybody could provide a link to this number
From: RR (@ 218.212.113.206) on: Thu Dec 2 08:24:09 EST 2004

eden: saamakozhi - http://tfmpage.com/cgi-bin/song.pl?id=mani-8.2
mythila: solaikuyile - http://tfmpage.com/cgi-bin/song.pl?id=mani-8.3
From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Thu Dec 2 13:25:56 EST 2004

Young children are very observant and much smarter than we think they are. My son is also 3years old, his favorite song is 'bam chiku bam chiku' he also likes un kuthama (he tries to sing this), does not like aasai adhigam vechu (i have to fwd this one) and prefers the next one - nalladhOr veenai seidhE.
His other music observations -
*) Western classic music on radio in the car - 'appa idhu cartoon music' (WCM used as bgm in the cartoons he watches mostly)

*) Theme music is his most watched 'Trucks' DVD - 'yEnpa..intha music THIRUPPI THIRUPPI varudhu'

Okay..over to Mani.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Fri Dec 3 01:04:30 EST 2004

Dear Udanpirappukkale,

Thanks for the immense response and enthusiasm. I am no more at the giving end. I now stand on thereceiving end. I have gained so much from the knowledgeable people around.

I have some interesting piece to share. However my PC is down. I am using my colleague's PC. The story is in my own PC. Should everything go fine, I should post by this evening.

Manisekaran
From: mythila (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Fri Dec 3 05:23:45 EST 2004

RR, can't thank u enuff for the "solai kuyile" link -:)
From: Roshan (@ 220.247.247.52) on: Fri Dec 3 08:10:39 EST 2004

This seems to be a nice place to talk about some nice IR songs. But I have no idea about these Raagas :(.

RR,

Thanks for those two songs of SPS. I listened to it after a long time. Beautiful numbers.
From: senthilv.com (@ 68.88.72.7) on: Fri Dec 3 08:26:06 EST 2004

A lot to catch up!

Kiru & Prabhudas:

Thanks for the comments and encouragement. Sorry, I got very busy with some work and moreover, I don�t know the situation of �En Kanmani� song. So I�m totally handicapped.

Here�s a commentary of �Sevvanthi poo mudichu chinnakka..�

I get ecstatic and receive goose bumps when I reverse engineer (decompose...lol) Raaja�s songs. Coz, it gives an idea to understand Raaja�s working brain. This song makes easy for anyone to understand the indisputable connection between the film situation and song format.

Sorry for another retrograde move from me.
http://tfmpage.com/songs/mani/16-sev.rm
http://tfmpage.com/forum/18239.9670.05.23.27.html

SEVVANTHI POO MUDICHU CHINNAKKA

Situation: Physically handicapped Rajagopalan (Kamal) *slaps* a male chauvinist doctor for calling him �Chappani� (derogatory term for handicapped). He tells the incident to Mayil (Sridevi) �-one time girl friend of the doctor. She perceives this as revenge on the doctor for dumping her. Also it was she who told Rajagopalan to slap anyone who calls him �Chappani�. She pesters him questioning �how did you slap him?� and eventually makes Rajagopalan to slap her. (Two slaps in total) After the slap, she very happy to know, how her ex-boy friend would have felt the slap. She laughs, cherishes the slap and it takes her to a different *emotional plane*. This event also takes Kamal from Chappani to Rajagopalan. He�s on a different *emotional plane* too, since no one in the village will dare to call him Chappani ever again! It is time to *Celebrate* David�s victory over Goliath.

Raaja�s composing/orchestration choice.

Theme: Jubilant Celebration!
Sub-theme: Growth to different emotional plane.

Opening (Prelude):

1) The violin piece (?) concentrates on elevating the characters and also the listener to a different emotional plane. This achieves extremely good transition and mood setting for the rest of the song.
2) SLAP --- Listen how Raaja uses *slap* as a *slap* and then follows it with a *slap* as a CLAP!!! Clap in the sense of celebration!!! Wonderful irony here-- the same slap sound but two different meaning. This is ingenious. The only difference between slap and clap is the time interval. Does it stop there? Nope. The clap is not only used as the start of the celebration but it also used as sound motif to call the villagers to join the celebration. This slap/clap sound motif is repeated throughout the song and exploited to the maximum effect. There�s more! There are exactly two slaps and two claps, reflecting of the underlying song situation. (one slap for the bigot and the other for sridevi) This is not only innovative sound design but also superb storytelling!
3) The ascending lady voice --- The voice ascension expresses the spreading of the slap incident around the village and eventual conquest of it. It not only declares the supremacy but it also announces the arrival for Mayil (Sridevi) and Rajagopalan (Kamal) to the Villagers. The ascending voice actually sound like a siren announcement :)
4) Following the lady voice is a village drum beat plus bell sound exactly mimicking the earlier slap, clap idea. But here it means getting ready for the party in a musical way, setting up the instruments and musical ground for full blown celebration. A subtle difference but nevertheless brilliant!
5) Hoi chorus � Hoi! Hoi! It is worth noting that the simple chorus is again a musical variation of the slap/clap. This song is a good study of sound motif from film situation weaved into a song effortlessly and brilliantly.
6) Silence--- Special mention goes to silence. Raaja uses the silence to build tension, as a musical interval, create suspense and even as a reversal of the clap sound motif in the second stanza. The silence creates different meaning every time it is employed in the song.

Interlude 1: Clap motif again, if you listen carefully you�ll catch the double clap start of the village drum beat :) Rest of the interlude celebrates the celebration intensely and asserts more supremacy.

Interlude 2: The song returns to accentuate and assert the emotional growth of the characters with the violin piece. It certainly possible to take this piece as an elevation from ground to space. An ascension same as the voice ascension employed throughout the song.

Second stanza: In the middle of the stanza Raaja sets up silence, creates suspense in sync with the lyrics, but added to that he also makes the listener expect another clap sound. Cleverly, he breaks the expectation, reverses the motif and does not employ the clap sound. This is pretty fundamental for any art. Set-up a pattern (regularity) and break it (irregular). In other word you can only break rules and add variety to piece if you set-up some regularity.

CLAP-CLAP for Raaja?
From: G.Ragavan (@ 210.210.93.101) on: Fri Dec 3 08:57:05 EST 2004

"Ponnu Ooruku Puthu" movie has wonderful songs and all of them are my favourite. Especially "Unakenna thaane Innerama", "Chamak kozhi" and "Solai Kuyile". One of the best alumbs by IR.

"Orambo" song is also good. but a teasing song. even though it is good, it stands behind other songs of the same movie.

>>Many of the MDs, Produces, Directors, Financiers and Lyricists too did not give open
>>support to Ilayaraja. Most of them thought Raja was just one of those new comers who would not
>>last too long. The common word they all collectively used then was that Ilayaraja would
>>be side washed- �Oram Poividuvaan�

Manisekharan, I dont think other MDs of those period had green eye on IR. Because I have a read an interview by IR in some magazine. late 80s, I think. It was a question about other MDs. And IR has high regards on them. He was pointing out an incident with MSV. It was after the release of Annakili, and IR was in AVM recording theatre for some other movie. MSV who came to the same studio for different recording theatre heard IR's presence (music director of annakilli). He went to the recording theatre where IR was recording some song immediately and wished him, it seems. I always have a feeling that IR has high respect and regards for MSV. Even he took the Simphony cassette to MSV first, I heard. I dont remember IR talking about any other MDs.

But one more common thing I have found. Whenever some MD enters music industry, these kind of "oram pyiduvaan" talk doesnt arise. But when the trend setting MD enters in to the scenario, these kind of talks comes out.

Subthread #15 :

From: RR (@ 202.156.2.8) on: Fri Dec 3 09:17:20 EST 2004

senthilv: Wonderful analysis! siren observation was cool :) indeed the use of silence is great in this song. Clap-clap to Raja, and you for the insightful analysis!
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.101) on: Fri Dec 3 09:58:07 EST 2004

senthilv, excellent & enjoyable analysis...Though this film was a daring, pioneering venture and with good emotional content, in mere technical terms cannot be called `perfect' as there was room for lot of improvements. However, Raja's music? It was already close to perfection...polished...brilliant...IMHO.
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.101) on: Fri Dec 3 10:46:33 EST 2004

While `sendhoorappoovE' is the topper in 16 vayadhinilE, there are magical moments in the other numbers too...to cite a couple:

1. The second interlude of `sevvanthippoo mudichcha chellakka hOi'...I don't remember the visual, however, there is a transition to strings (glimpse of Raja's ever-present inclination to move to classical, even when handling a pucca folk song)...kind of a trance like situation...makes one feel euphoric...midhappadhu pOndRa oru uNarvu...before you're brought back to earth by the `thandhana thAna' chorus...

2. The slow SJ piece following the `chappAnikkum sabalam pArungO' in the manjakkuLichchu song...`azhagppA, azhagappA, Anazhagan neeyappA'...with no percussion but excellent guitar / piano (?) background...so melodious and lovely piece before starting off the folk drums again...

There could be mistakes in the exact locations of these pieces as I haven't heard these songs for years...the flip side is their lasting power in one's memory! That's inexplicable since I'm no musician, don't play any instrument, not a singer...such is the impact of IR's music that an average radio listener dissects the song and stores in his memory for such a long a time...
From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Fri Dec 3 15:08:31 EST 2004

"This is pretty fundamental for any art. Set-up a pattern (regularity) and break it (irregular). In other word you can only break rules and add variety to piece if you set-up some regularity.
"
This is the surprise part, right ? Thanks for the lesson, Senthil (maybe you should introduce yourself here (parttime movie directing ?).

"Raaja uses the silence to build tension, as a musical interval, create suspense"
In this context, I should mention my favorite quote of Raaja - "I use music to CREATE silence".

"glimpse of Raja's ever-present inclination to move to classical, even when handling a pucca folk song"
Exactly Eden, watch for the 2 or 3 part counterpoints at the end of second interlude. Counterpoints/polyphonic sounds are the watermark to identify raaja's currency.

Solaikkuyile seems like a nice classical/folk crossover. I did not know it was SPS till she sang thullum ragamE :-)
From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Fri Dec 3 17:29:15 EST 2004

Solaikuyile and Adi PeNNE ponnoonjal are both stunners, songs that have a lot of soul in them, something thats been scarce in IR's creations these past 10-15 years. The guitar piece in one of the interludes merges so beautifully with the rest of the "folkish" part and mridhungam providing able support. Contrast this with the tiresome monotonous tabla usage one would hear from IR starting from late 80s onwards. Adi PeNNE had jaladharangam and a variety of other percussion instruments interplaying with one another throughout the song. The postlude is top-notch.
From: Prabhudas (@ 143.104.179.230) on: Fri Dec 3 18:21:41 EST 2004

Senthilv. nice write up with great analysis again.

The second interlude's music appears very briefly with mild variation as a back ground score just before the song actually begins in the movie visually depicting the two character's elation and joy

Vijay while u mentioned, "adi Pennae Ponnonjal aadum", true it is a pleasure listening to this one of the ultimate "postlude", are there any similar attempts by IR with those kind of extraordinary "postludes",

IMHO, one of the greatest songs ( way... way...ahead of it times ) depicting a teenage girl's inner experience.

also does anyone ever find a decent CD of Mullum Malarum ?, I have the so called original released by HMV ( pathetic) with horrible recording
From: Surya (@ 69.0.18.15) on: Fri Dec 3 18:34:42 EST 2004

Is SPS singing thuLLum rAgamE or thuLLum rAgavE? Everytime I listen to this song, I keep asking this question to myself. Is it just me?
From: manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Sat Dec 4 01:34:17 EST 2004

Dear Friends,

My computer crashed. Please carry on discussing. I shall catch up soon. The subject is vast enrough for contiunous discussions.

mani
From: RR (@ 202.156.2.8) on: Sat Dec 4 02:19:04 EST 2004

One more song till Mr.Mani is back.

adi penne - http://tfmpage.com/cgi-bin/song.pl?id=mani-8.4
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Sat Dec 4 03:48:57 EST 2004

Dear Friends,

I have lost everything in my PC- TROJAN had entered and eaten up 10 hears of hard work!
I am on leave. Came to office to type out to continue my posting.

14. HEI PAADAL ONRU and other songs of PRIYA

The SPT Film PRIYA (1979)happened to be a turning point in the musical career of Ilayaraja. That was the first film to have introduced the stereophonic sound system in entire India. In Bombay there was already a form of stereo system. But was not in its true form. They used to record into mono system and convert into stereo system.

In any mono system there would be three tracks- one for voice, one for instruments and the third for rhythms. A true stereophonic system should consist of 8 tracks and 16 channels which Ilayaraja introduced in his 31st movie PRIYA

Raja had all along wanted to introduce stereo system in the first movie itself to create a tremendous impact. But his voice was still a distant thunder then. He was waiting for the opportune moment to make his intenstions known. The moment came when SP Muthuraman was making the film PRIYA. Ilayaraja expressed his wish to introduce the stereo system, to which Muthuraman immediately consented, not even giving second thoughts to the extra expenses that it may entail. Muthuraman was already comfortable cashing on Raja�s musical strength. So Raja went ahead. In act Raja was hasty. It so happened that at that time singer Jesudass had imported some stereo system for his own use. The singer was installing the system in Arunasalam studio, but again was not completed on time. Ilayaraja spoke to Jesudass and got the system transferred to Bharani studio. There the installation was done in a hasty manner and five songs were recorded.he employed the Boney M technique in the recording of the songs. Perhaps the song Darling Darling reflects this. Raja himself said that in one song he had used 115 instruments. I do not know which was the song. The songs were pressed in Germany and cut in Calcutta. In 1979 there was no pressing facility in India. Jesudass who cooperated with Raja never took a single paisa for rendering the assistance. One could always reflect on the best of the gems that Raja made Jesudass to sing in later years. Thendral vanthu ennai Thodum, Enthan nenjill Neengatha Thenral Neethaana are just two of the many I could think of.

The songs of PRIYA :
1. Akkarai Seemai Azhaginile ManamAada Kandene by Jesudass
2. Darling Darling Dalring I love You by P Suseela
3. Enn Uyir Neethaane by Jesudass and Jency
4. Oh Priya by Jesudass
5. He Padal Onru- Jesudass and S. Janaki

CONTINUES...
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Sat Dec 4 03:49:57 EST 2004

DIGRESSION:
As soon as the songs were recorded, the crew rushed to Malaysia for shooting. My close friend Chandrakantham took me to receive them. I agreed to go with the hope of meeting up with Panchu Arunasalam to extract every bit of information on Raja. I was introduced to SP Muthuraman in the Kuala Lumpur Airport. Karu Karthik, another malaysain friend was also there. We then adjourned to the VIP waiting lounge while waiting for the crew and stars to fly in from Singapore. During that one hour SP Muthuraman spoke many great things of Raja. I shall empty them at the appropriate time. Suffice to say the SP. Muthurman saw Raja as a new gift the Tamilnadu. An hour later Rajni Kanth, Sri Devi, Panchu Arunaslam came touched down. I was introduced to Rajni who shook had very warmly with me. 16 vayathinile had just completed its run in Malaysia and I mentioned to Rajni on this great movie. He was only too happy to learn of this. Panchu Arunasalam was introduced to me. Unfortunately he was �floating� in his own world and my hope of interviewing him on pre and post Annakkili days was dashed!. We took all of them into a luxury coach to drop them in a hotel. Coincidentally I was seated next to Sri Devi. She enquired on the impat of 16 vayathinile. I motioned the revival of Paavadai and Thavani and girls being teased as �Mayilu.� She laughted her heart out and admitted the same being the case in India. I was invited for the shooting on the following day. The song was Hei Paadal Onru raagam Onru. I had picked up other appointments, and that still remains a sore point for me, as soon as learning of the brilliant song wedded to the good shooting.

BACK TO SUBJECT

Following the introduction of stereo system in PRIYA, Raja was able to experiment more in the field of cine music. He gave more and more of what cine fans had never tasted. That was a turning pint in the career of the MAESTRO. More and more gems bearing unheard of novelty were introduced. Stereo enabled Raja to bring in still greater victories. From folk music he scaled into most modern western music. We were able to see a different Raja altogether! The next song in store will prove this point without any shadow of doubt!

Listen to 'hey paadal ondru'
Have a nice weekend!
From: vijay (@ 68.51.134.219) on: Sat Dec 4 17:57:20 EST 2004

Mani, sorry to hear about the virus. Make sure you have the anti-virus software with latest updates(like Zonealarm) and other spy killer software in your PC for added protection. Good writeup for the priya song.

Incidentally the song akkarai seemai from the movie seems to have been heavily inspired(the pallavi) from a song by a group called the Kites. This was mentioned recently by someone here in DF. The tune for the pallavi is almost ditto as that of the original which was a bit disappointing.

"Is SPS singing thuLLum rAgamE or thuLLum rAgavE? Everytime I listen to this song, I keep asking this question to myself. Is it just me?"

Surya, same here. First time blues for SPS I think, or maybe she just had a cold :-)
From: vijay (@ 68.51.134.219) on: Sat Dec 4 18:00:02 EST 2004

actually the song name is "Kites" Here is the link
http://www.iespana.es/i2fs2/Kites-SimonDupree.rm
From: RR (@ 218.186.183.230) on: Sat Dec 4 22:26:29 EST 2004

vijay: there's some resemblance (especially to the strings that immly follow the pallavi), but not to the extent of copied/inspired I think.

Subthread #16 :

From: Bala (@ 68.38.80.142) on: Sat Dec 4 23:21:40 EST 2004

Mani Sir

Thanks for the details on Priya.
Small Digression from the songs:

I believe 'Priya' was the first tamil movie songs under 'Increo' Label. (My guess is the first movie for IR away from HMV label, does not know if EMI/ODEON is a different lable and if any IR songs came in that label). What was the background in going with Inreco? Many greatest IR hits like Johnny, Uthiripookal, Azhage Unnai.., Nenjathai killadhe, Guru, Ullasa Paravaigal came under this label. TR's early hits and SG's Neeya also came in this label if I remember correctly. I believe INRECO sells these songs now and they are now in Carnatic?Devotional labels?

Can you throw some light on this.

IN 1979/80, I believe IR signed a 7 or 8 film contract with MIL (POLYDOR). A 2 page advertisment came in SCREEN (my elder sisters/brothers were ardent Hindi fans and thus we used to buy this Friday magazine coming in newspaper format). Alaiagal Oyvathillai, Kadal Meengal, Aradhanai, Paneer Pushpangal and others came in this label. I believe Kozhi Koovuthu, Tick Tick Tick, Kadhal Oviyum, Raam Lakshman also came in this label but not sure..

Mani Sir/RR/Ramki/Saravanan, anyone can throw some light on this....

As we all know Anadha Raagam was the first movie under ECHO and then till Chinna Thambi, IR's songs came under that label...

He then had Raja label, moved to AVM and then came back to HMV and then I lost track and IR lost touch...

Actually I would like to collect the 8 labels of Polydor, but unfortunately I see no website selling them...

SOrry for the digression

Bala
From: senthilv.com (@ 69.148.83.116) on: Sun Dec 5 12:58:53 EST 2004

Thanx Manisekaran. This is definitely a turning point in Raaja's career.

I was always puzzled by the unbalanced stereo recording in Priya. I reckon it would have been even better if it not was done hastily like you mentioned. Where they running against time?

Anyway, Priya is one my all time fav albums. IMO, the film song situation has nothing great going for it except that they were really selling the Singapore craze, its location and unique cross cultural love. I guess that was enough for Raaja. This is one of those albums where he threw in lot effort on his own to come up with great songs.

Digression: Priya BGM score for the chase scene where Rajini saves his future lover is a terrific piece. SP Muthuraman did good job in directing a cliche situation and Raaja elevated the SPM's scene to great heights. For me, this was the first education in Raaja's BGM methods. I sort of understood what Raaja was trying to do for the first time! :) In later films, he's score became very sophisticated and difficult to figure out. So, if you�re interested in knowing Raaja's techniques. Please do watch this scene couple of times....It is actually very enjoyable.

RR, eden & Kiru:

Thanks again for the encouraging words.

Kiru, yes, I'm a filmmaker...not partime but fulltime! ;) you can check out my website http://senthilv.com A new site is in works and it's not upto date. I'm extremely busy preparing for a new film.
From: vijay (@ 68.51.134.219) on: Sun Dec 5 20:28:19 EST 2004

RR, the vocal portion itself is similiar if you noticed. Just hum the tune of opening lines the guy is singing, just the tempo is slower, the tune is almost ditto. This is more of a lift than an inspiration!, atleast the pallavi, IMO
From: vijay (@ 68.51.134.219) on: Sun Dec 5 20:34:04 EST 2004

In his first 5 years IR seems to have been inspired in a few songs by a variety of sources, both Indian and Western. Endha poovilum vaasam undu, aaha vandhiruchchu, ennadi meenatchi, kan malargaLin azhaipidhazh etc. are all examples. Dharisanam kidaikaadha..the opening line of this song is almost ditto to saamaja varagamana.
The extent of inspiration is minimal, usually just the opening line or two but nevertheless noticeable. This might have been due to the inclination to sound different and modern(like BoneyM) at that time. Later after he had established a stronghold on the market, his inspirations seem to have gone down.
From: RR (@ 192.122.134.249) on: Sun Dec 5 21:23:39 EST 2004

vijay: I agree on 'endha poovilum vaasam undu'. Ditto.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Sun Dec 5 21:43:09 EST 2004

Dear Friends,
I received an email from a silent reader.
Learning of my computer crash, he came forward to provide some financial assistance towards securing my PC against virus. I am indeed moved by such gestures. I have told him to donate the money for the Cause of God or for some educational purpose.

I think my greatest achievement is to have earned sincere friends from this forum.

I thought I should share someting that has moved my heart.
From: MumbaiRamki (@ 63.186.18.171) on: Sun Dec 5 22:35:50 EST 2004

Manisekhrana sir ,
Can you please ask that good souled person to donate for thiruvasagam in SYmphony project !!!
From: RR (@ 202.156.2.8) on: Mon Dec 6 08:30:42 EST 2004

akkarai seemai - http://tfmpage.com/cgi-bin/song.pl?id=mani-14.2
darling - http://tfmpage.com/cgi-bin/song.pl?id=mani-14.3
ennuyir neethane - http://tfmpage.com/cgi-bin/song.pl?id=mani-14.4
sri raamanin - http://tfmpage.com/cgi-bin/song.pl?id=mani-14.5
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.33) on: Mon Dec 6 10:18:35 EST 2004

-darling,darling inspired from BoneyM
-akkarai cheemai azhaginilE from Kites(?)
-srirAmanin slightly inspired from an old hindi Mohd Rafi song (my classmate used to sing that in college, which also had O priya...aaa...ahahaha...)

Looks like Priya is definitely a rush-rush album for Raja with more tilt on recording technique / technology than on creativity (much like most of today's MD's)...

`hEy pAdal ondRu' is nevertheless a great song, an all-time classic, absolutely original (IOKS' favourite and they could not pick on any original source BTW)-KJY/SJ in their best elements. My only problem was a mono-vacuum tube radio those days which will not receive some of the stereo phonic tracks and the song will be different each time IOKS transmits:-))

I have `ennuyir nee thAnE' on a CD (red color Inreco collection) which is great, by way of `sound' too! This is again a lovely song (how come Jency gets all those stunners from IR...), probably another original...

Mani sir, (with a sigh), neenga romba koduthu vachavar:-))
From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Mon Dec 6 13:04:53 EST 2004

Yeh paadal Ondru is a good song with interesting rhythm usage. Probably the first instance of Kapi(not to be read as "copy" :-) ) in IR's music?
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.33) on: Mon Dec 6 13:20:40 EST 2004

Priya - the movie was quite stupid..another Sujatha story wasted on screen...(Rajni is supposed to be Ganesh which may be tolerable. But the actor in the role of Vasanth? My goodness...The producer / director or someone had something against Sujatha, for sure! Lest they wouldn't have made such a bad choice and distortion of the storyline as well)...
From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Mon Dec 6 13:44:05 EST 2004

Priya, is definitely rushed when it comes to recording. At one point, you can hear the 'delay/echo' even before the singer sings. I dont know how they managed that !!! There are similar stereo songs, with the vocals or strings panned to the left or right. Sounds weird.
I am not a fan of Priya's songs (inspite of many KJY songs- my fav singer), even though the movie and songs where quite a hit at that time.

BTW, I think Sujatha's stories make for better reading than on screen.
From: Surya (@ 69.177.140.153) on: Mon Dec 6 17:58:30 EST 2004

vijay: I'm so glad that its not just me... :)
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Mon Dec 6 20:21:19 EST 2004

15. INTHA MINMINIKKU KANNIL ORU
From 1976, by and large Ilayaraja was portraying himself as an invincible composer of folk tunes. It is not that he could not excel in Western tunes and melodies. It so happened that he was given village based subjects. Off and on he was still providing glimpses of western orchestration and music as and when situation demanded.

We had seen that Raja had all along wanted to use stereo in his songs. He started to build up the equipments in stages. When Jesudass came to Malaysia for the first time in 1977, we met him at TV Malaysia, where he talked great of the YAMAHA amplifiers from Japan. He had just purchased it from Singapore. Raja must have heard of that. When Raja came to Malaysia in 1977, he stayed with my friend Ganapathi. His arrival and departure was not made public as he had come to purchase some electronic equipment for his recording studio. He wished not to meet anyone. From Malaysia he went over to Singapore to buy computer equipments in order to be ahead of others in music. All these were used full in SIGAPPU ROJAKKAL.

PRIYA was certainly a rush job. Raja could have done better. But then the location was overseas and so the rush could not have been avoided.

Bharathiraja and Ilayaraja had teamed up to produce some of the most \wonderful village based subjects. 16 Vayathinile and Kizhakke Pogum Rayil were mega hits. 16 Vayathinile was a silver jubilee hit, while Kizhakke Poguym Rayil ran for 52 weeks or one full year. Both Ilayaraja and Bharathiraja were uncrowned kings in their own sphere of work- Ilayaraja for music and Bharathiraja for the production and direction of these movies.

These two movies, coupled with earlier mega hits earned for Ilayaraja the fame and name of �Gramathuraja.� He came to be called Gramathuraja for a short span of time. It was around this time that some form of challenge was thrown upon Ilayaraja, and by extension upon Bharathiraja as well. There was a talk- both subtle and open that these two associates could only excel in churning village-based films containing village based songs. IN other world it was clearly implied that they were not capable of going for western themes. They took this challenge. These two close friends once again put their heart and soul together to address the queries of their critics. Bharathiraja immediately started to work on a diametrically opposite theme, modelled along Richard Burton�s �Blue Beard.� It was a thriller movie- K.G.R. Productions SIGAPPU ROJAKKAL. There was no touch� of village breeze at all. I had explained that Ilayaraja had just started to employ stereophonic system into Tamil in just the previous film PRIYA- the 31st movie. SIGAPPU ROJAKKAL happened to be the 32nd movie for him. So this was anther chance for Ilayaraja to prove that he was a versatile composer. This time he took his own time to compose. Background music is extremely important for any thriller movie. Raja was simply superb, especially at the scene when the cat goes after Sri Devi, and the decomposed corpse surfaces during a heavy downpour! I could not believe a Pannaipuram Raja excelling in a Chennaipuram theme- only that well. In Malaysia the movie was an instant hit! This film boasts of two songs- NINAIVO ORU PARAVAI by KLamal and S. Janaki, and of course INTHA MINMINIKKU KANNIL ORU MINNAL VANTHATHU. It was said Raja had used heavy orchestration in the songs.

CONTINUES...
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Mon Dec 6 20:22:24 EST 2004

The second song INTHA MINMINIKKU is taken for discussion. This song was sung by Malaysia Vasudevan and S. Janaki- the same team that had all along identified itself with village based songs. Now Ilayaraja used the same pair to sing western based song. And true enough they excelled not only in singing the song, but also in the way they sang it. We are made to understand that that was the first full scale western melody that Ilayaraja gave with the usage of stereo system. In the film there is dialogue in the song, but when listened to in vinyl record it was simply unbelievably mesmerising. One thing became very clear. Ilayaraja had gone fully western in this song. The film ran very well. The critics were silenced once and forever.

While the PRIYA songs were composed and recorded in haste, this particular song was carefully imagined and composed keeping in mind the challenge thrown upon both the Rajas.

Indha minminikku kannil oru minnal vandhadhu
adi pennae azhagu kannae
kaadhal raajaanga paravai
thaedum anandha uravai
sorgam un kanniley

thoattathiley pala pookkal undu
nee thaanae en sigappu rojaa
malarunnai pariththida thudikkiraen
la la...
thadaiyenna aruginil irukkiraen
la la...

I think the humming and the laughter of S. Janaki add an ecstatic feeling to the song. Of course he night club dancer swiging away is a good setting to creat the desired mood for the song. While PRIYA was the movie where Raja had introduced stereo, it is said that Raja went full scale western in background music and songs in SIGAPPU ROJAKKAL

Tamilnadu Government selected Bharathiraja as the best Director and Kamal as the best actor for this film that made it to the silver jubilee. So Bharathiraja and Ilayaraja proved that they could provide Silver jubilee hits for both village and urban themes- using both folk and western tunes.

Listen to 'indha minminikku'
(In a related matter, the first full scale western song that Ilayaraja himself sings comes from the movie THAIPONGAL- KANMALARGALIN AZHAIPPITHAL.)

Subthread #17 :

From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Mon Dec 6 20:35:41 EST 2004

I did not use the above song in the show. Instead I opted for POTHUVAGA EN MANASU THANGAM for the sake of the fans of the superstar, and with another message from Raja.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Mon Dec 6 22:47:30 EST 2004

The full lyrics:
MV:Indha minminikku kannil oru minnal vandhadhu
adi kanne azhagu penne
kaadhal raajaanga paravai
thaedum anandha uravai
sorgam un kanniley

SJ:Indha minminikku kannil oru minnal vandhadhu
en Manna Azhagu manna
kaadhal raajaanga paravai
thaedum anandha uravai
sorgam en kayile
Indha minminikku kannil oru minnal vandhadhu

SJ: Intha Mangai Ival Inba Gangai
Enthan Mannan Enai Serkum Kadai
MV: Inthak Kadal Pala Gangai Nathi
Vanthu Sontham Kondadum Idam
SJ: En Udal Unakkendurm Samparpanam
MV: na na na na na na Adi Ennadi Unakkindru Avasaram?
SJ: na na na na na na na
MV:Indha minminikku kannil oru minnal vandhadhu
adi kanne azhagu penne
SJ: Kaadhal raajaanga paravai
thaedum anandha uravai
sorgam en kayile

MV: Intha Minminikku Kannil Oru Minnal Vanthathu

MS:Thoattathiley pala pookkal undu
nee thaanae en Sigappu Rojaa
SJ:Indrum Enrum Ennai unnudane Naan thanthen En Aasai Raja

MV: Malarunnai pariththida thudikkiraen
la la...
SJ : na na Na na Na na Ini thadaiyenna aruginil irukkiraen?
MV: nana nana Na naa

SJ Indha minminikku kannil oru minnal vandhadhu
en Manna azhagu kanna
MV:Kaadhal raajaanga paravai
thaedum anandha uravai
sorgam en kayile
SJ:Intha Minminikku Kannil Oru Minnal vanthathu
nanna Nanna Nanna Nanna Nanna Nanna(laughter)
From: SN (@ 220.227.179.5) on: Tue Dec 7 01:41:04 EST 2004

Going back to sevvandhi poo mudicha. After reading the great analysis of senthil, i just recollect how it was filmed. Great show and great composition and great song. After the slap/clap (only one clap), then PS starts with ascending heiiiiiiiii... (Mani, pls confirm it was PS). It goes like a gaint wheel, max ascend and comes down slowly. End of heiiii, another CLAP. Then immediately dhandhana dhandhana stars with that unique Hoi in between. This fantastci number was burried in the glory of sendhura poove, i guess. Mani it brought it from the burrough. Senthil, great analysis is yours!!
From: Sharath (@ 203.190.152.34) on: Tue Dec 7 02:13:00 EST 2004

SN,

I agree with your words, "This fantastic number was burried in the glory of sendhura poove"

I like Sevvanthi Poo more than Sendhoora Poove. I guess that has been the case with most of Ilayaraja's scores where some great numbers go unnoticed from glory due to the shadowing effect of another song in the same movie, though this is really a healthy competition as it benefits listeners like us.

Few songs which come to my mind as examples with other song in the same movie that became more popular in brackets:

Muthamizh Kaviye (Thenmadurai Vaigai Nadhi) from Dharmathin Thalaivan

Uravenum Pudhiya Vaanil (Paruvamey Pudhiya Paadal) from Nenjatthai Killathey

Enna thaan sugamo nenjiley (Maanin Iru Kannam) from Maappillai

Kannan Vandhu Paadigiraan (Raja Raja Chozhan) from Rettai Vaal Kuruvi.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Tue Dec 7 02:29:47 EST 2004

SN:I liked the picturisation and the song itself. It is P Suseela.

Did you see this part:

AATHULA KAATHADCHA ALAI MODTHUM, "KENDAI VILAYADUM"

When kamal sings "Kendai Vilayaadum" Sri Devi blinks her eyes- in the style of Saroja Devi.

Kendai here referes to Kendai meen. In Tamil poems, we also use Kendai (fish) to mean the eyes of the female: Kayal Vizhi - Kayal is fish.

That is what we call carefully thought of Direction which is lacking these days.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Tue Dec 7 04:48:36 EST 2004

AN ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

Raja had mentioned that he had used the hummng tune in this tune, that can be used to creat both happy and sand moods. When sung in a fast tempo, the humming creates a happy mood, and when sung in a slow tempo, it creates a sad mood. Here raja had used the fast tempo.

Please add this infromation to the song.
mani
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Tue Dec 7 04:50:14 EST 2004

Read as sad not "sand" moods. Naan oru "Mannu" making typo errors.
Mani
From: raj (@ 61.246.255.3) on: Tue Dec 7 05:08:19 EST 2004

Ninaivo oru paravai from Sigappu rojakkal is my choice than Indha..

the beat and Lyrical beauty is awesome
From: Nevis (@ 62.215.3.51) on: Tue Dec 7 09:08:56 EST 2004

I thought Alaigall Oyvathillai was the first stereo record from BR-IR combination. Maybe I missed hearing the stereo effect in Sigappu Rojaakkall.
From: G.Ragavan (@ 61.16.168.141) on: Tue Dec 7 09:59:01 EST 2004

Priya : one of my favorite albums of IR. "Yennuir neethane" song is my all time favourite, and ofcourse the other songs too. But Yennuir neethaane is unique and mind blowing.

Chigappu Rojakal - Another tantilizing album. SJanki had done a great work and justice to the exteamly pleasing tunes of IR. Malaysia Vasudevan's voice had shown a different dimension in this film, apparantly IR had brought out the talent.

Thanks for remainding both the albums.
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.101) on: Tue Dec 7 10:34:03 EST 2004

The only eye sore in sigappu rOjakkaL is the flashback (unavoidable to the storyline but could have been handled in a much more artistic way IMO) and the BGM for that part was irritating too...If only the both Raja's worked on that part also to be classy, it would have been one all-time great film...

Similar is the case of moondRam piRai, another great movie with some irritating scenes / BGM. While the silk smitha portions had excellent, classy music it had horrible visuals. OTOH, Raja made loud noise as BGM for the Natraj scenes...If only BM had acted a bit more carefully, it would have been another all-time classic (which you can watch with grand parents and children)...

Two Kamal films where he had really performed well and most other elements (ofcourse including Sridevi) were great as well ...Brilliant performances by the directors and Raja (with minor irritations)...
From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue Dec 7 13:41:51 EST 2004

"Raja had mentioned that he had used the hummng tune in this tune, that can be used to creat both happy and sand moods. When sung in a fast tempo, the humming creates a happy mood, and when sung in a slow tempo, it creates a sad mood. Here raja had used the fast tempo.

Please add this infromation to the song.
mani"

Manisekaran, which song are you referring to? The humming before indha minminnikku? I have observed that the humming before Indha minminikku had the potential to be a pathos piece if just the tempo is slowed down. I remember mentioning it in DF long back. Thats why was a little excited if IR has thought the same way :-) If its the 16 vayadhinile song you are referring to, then my bad.

Sigappu rojakkaL was definitely a landmark film/album, two graamarajas joining hands to make a sophisticated urban thriller the likes of which tamil movies wont see for a looooong time. Even Tik Tik Tik was surprising in that aspect although it was a less serious and more commercial flick. And the score for Tik Tik Tik is hip to listen to, even today.

Unfortunately Malaysia Vasudevan is one singer who I felt should have been put to rest right in the early 80s. Thanks to IR's eccentricity in choosing/promoting singers he became a "playback" singer when he wouldnt have been a track singer in the 60s. Most of the folk/dappanguthu songs he sang anyone could have sung them, IR could have probably sung them better himself. MV would later go on to sing hundreds of junk songs for IR in the late 80s for the likes of Ramarajan/Prabhu/Vijaykanth etc.
From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue Dec 7 13:48:00 EST 2004

Manisekaran, I am requesting this again, but if you have any info on the rationale which IR adopted in choosing singers like Jency, Deepan, S.N. Surendar, MV etc please let me know. Also as to why Uma R always got the choicest of tunes despite being no more than a decent light music troupe singer. These are some things that have baffled me.Was it because he just wanted to introduce fresh voices?( just like how we had a spate of fresh voices in the mid-90s when a new trend set in)
From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Tue Dec 7 14:26:51 EST 2004

Mani sir,
Sridevi's laughter at the end , I think, is not 'ecstatic' it is 'eerie'. Atleast, that is how I felt with the sound effect added to a lone laughter.
BTW, I have never watched 16 vayadhinilE, until Senthil explained the reasoning behind the slaps/claps I never knew why they were there. (Senthil, you quit software architecting ? I envy you :-), just kidding, I still seem to enjoy software).
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Tue Dec 7 19:24:18 EST 2004

Vijay,

I am rferrring to the Intha Minminikku song.

As for the choice of different users, I do not want to go into details in the forum.
I had met up with Uma Ramanan and spoke of Raja's music. Please email me if you are so enthusiastic to know the reasons
Thank you.
Mani
From: senthilv.com (@ 69.148.80.184) on: Tue Dec 7 19:27:43 EST 2004

Vijay:

you're being unfair with Malaysia Vasudevan :)

Thanks SN.

Kiru:

In real world, I'm still in software business and enjoy it but in imaginary world I'm in filmmaking. You'll understand this cryptic comment as you read further.
I encourage you and everyone to listen to Raaja's song with film situation in mind. If not, you're missing a lot of JOY.

Manisekaran:

We need POTHUVAGA EN MANASU THANGAM info too!

Although, I like "Indha Minminiku" song I personally prefer "Ninavoo Oru Paaravai". Obvisouly because it is more filmic :)

Here's commentary of it (RR, is it possible to provide a link for it?)

NINAIVOO ORU PAARAVAI (Memories are birds?) - Listen to the song

SONG SITUATION: After the marriage with Kamal character, Sridevi character *cherishes*, *dreams*, takes a *blissful journeys* back in time about kamal and their love. She is unaware till this point that Kamal is actually a psychopath. In the film, following this song, I think she runs into mysterious things, incidents and eventually she realizes Kamal is a psychopathic killer. This song should set-up her love feeling to it�s *height* from where she�s going to have a free fall. Just like she dreams, her love and her lover is JUST A DREAM and not real.

Raaja�s composing choice:

THEME: Blissful journey back in time (with the help of *flying* memories/thought :) )
Sub theme: Flying & sensual love.

Raaja�s takes inspiration from the idea of flying *Paravai*(Bird) from NINAIVO ORU PARAVAI (Memories are birds?) and marries it with the *imaginary* Kamal character that Sridevi has built in her mind and let�s that thought *fly* separately! The manifestation of this idea is the counterpoint melody.

Basically, Sridevi is living in two different worlds�the actual reality (Where she might get killed!) and imaginary blissful realm. (All Lovey dovey) Raaja beautifully separates (and intermingles) these two realities by playing the Kamal�s counterpoint melody over the main melody. He maintains this idea and juxtaposes the real world and imaginary world throughout the song. Also, the counterpoint melody comes in and goes out just like sridevi�s dreamy thoughts of her lover. These all are very expressionistic in idea.

STATING (interlude): Raaja makes Sridevi character just hum (cherish the thought) then create an abstract tune (thinking about it) and slowly *journey* into the realm of dream. (where it is all bliss) The visual analogy is a slow motion take-off of a bird to the heights of the sky. Here, he exactly achieves this analogy musically. It needs couple listening to get a feel for it.

THE BASS GUITAR: This guitar piece gives a trance like feel and embellishes the main melody and sometimes the counterpoint melody. So, this piece may serve as a connection between the dream world and real world for sridevi because the guitar instrument is again used for transitioning from interlude (dream world) back to stanzas (real world)

MAIN MELODY: The tune makes you really feel like it is coming from the real depths of Sridevi�s feeling and makes it just fly on it own! I don�t have musical acumen to go into this area and explain. So I won�t even try.

COUNTERPOINT MELODY: Notice, how the Kamal�s counterpoint melody *takes off* exactly at the word *paravai* :) If listened separately, it also literally FLIES like a bird! Also notice how kamal�s melody emerges as if it coming from *oblivion* (unconscious?) exactly how sridevi feels about bygone Kamal. Wonderful!

INTERLUDE 1:

DRUM PERCUSSION: The interlude starts with the dramatic drumming percussion. It is the only stark/dark element in the song but it is definitely not a foreshadowing element of lurking tragedy that will befall on Sridevi. It used as a dramatic transition from the elevated dream world back to the real world. It is probably just a hint :) If you stretch it, may be you can call it as a subtle musical motif to sridevi�s transition from blissful happiness to doldrums later in the movie.

VIOLIN: Then the violin interlude slowly leads into the physical journey of the sridevi with Kamal in a horse carriage ride (as it is pictured in the film). If you listen carefully you can catch the metronomic musical horse ride accompanied by horn and bell sound. If you did catch this and feel like d�j� vu, you�ve the right to feel so because this is probably a diluted version of the famous �Rajavin paarvai� horse run percussion meets the Hugo Montenegro�s theme from �A Fistful of Dollars�. Probably the horse carriage description by Bharathiraaja(Director) triggered both these ideas for Raaja. Anyway, the horse journey here is very symbolic of sridevi�s imagined journey into the dream rather than a real ride. Surreal is the word.

Then the interlude slowly leads us back to the main song.

Both the interludes and stanzas juxtapose the real world and the imaginary world very well.

Raaja took me into his world and now back to real world.
From: Jaiganesh (@ 203.101.103.2) on: Tue Dec 7 21:57:03 EST 2004

HI Senthil,
Nice analysis!! There are two points that come to my mind whenever i hear/see the song.
1. As u said the Drums percussion is a masterpiece. It has been used as a nice tool of story telling. It was as if to say "Just in case if anybody in the audience thought of leaving the seat thinking that there is a standard duet, please think again!!" I was kind of glued when i heard that drums!!! I dont know if this is the first song sung by Kamal haasan? The picturisation was clever too. As the humming of Kamal haasan becomes louder, he comes more into focus and closer. A technique which MTV videos employ till date.
2. Lyrics!! they have two layers of meanings. The heroine's verses are straight and simple. Whereas, Kamal's verses are loaded!! Lyrical analysis of the song will be interesting too.

Thanks,
Jaiganesh

Subthread #18 :

From: RRA (@ 203.199.213.4) on: Tue Dec 7 22:08:46 EST 2004

senthilv: Reg. "Ninaivo Oru", the charanam tune is similar to that of an old song, I think from the movie "Subhadinam". Radio Ceylon played the two songs one after the other in one of their programs.
RRA
From: RR (@ 192.122.134.249) on: Tue Dec 7 22:43:50 EST 2004

Senthil: I've linked it directly in your writeup.
From: SN (@ 220.227.179.5) on: Tue Dec 7 23:57:38 EST 2004

Senthil, great narration about the song seq. I thoroughly enjoyed. You are adding lot of colours and flavours to this great thread anchored by Manisekaran.

Eagerly waiting for more interesting notes :)
From: G.Ragavan (@ 61.16.168.141) on: Wed Dec 8 01:11:05 EST 2004

Vijay Wrote
>>Manisekaran, I am requesting this again, but if you have any info on the rationale which IR adopted in choosing singers like Jency, Deepan, S.N. Surendar, MV etc please let me know. Also as to why Uma R always got the choicest of tunes despite being no more than a decent light music troupe singer. These are some things that have baffled me.Was it because he just wanted to introduce fresh voices?( just like how we had a spate of fresh voices in the mid-90s when a new trend set in)

Hi Vijay,

I feel IR knows more about music and choosing the singers for any particular tune than us. And Uma Ramanan is a wonderful singer and obviously she too has restrictions like any other singer in world. I wish better way of addressing singers and their capabilities.

Thanks,
Ragavan
From: Jaiganesh (@ 203.101.103.2) on: Wed Dec 8 05:36:49 EST 2004

Hi!
I thought IR always went for Uma Ramanan, whenever the character of the heroine was docile, and soft spoken. Songs that come to my mind are "Manjal Veyyil" in nandu and "Poongadhave " in nizhalgal.

Thanks,
Jaiganesh
From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Wed Dec 8 09:40:46 EST 2004

G.Ragavan, Uma Ramanan is an average singer at best. SJ, Chithra, PS and even VJ were lightyears ahead of her. Anyways, thats my opinion and if you happen to be a UmaR fan you can stop reading my posts :-)
From: BarathiRajaBakthan (@ 143.115.159.56) on: Wed Dec 8 12:09:14 EST 2004

Senthilv's interpretation to the songs are totally half baked.I am working with Iyakunar Imayam since Nadodi Thenral and i know exactly the protocol he follows in picturising the songs.He is one among the very few gifted directors, who has got an extrordinary imagination.MD's has got very less to improvise, since our Director brings the whole picture infront of them when he explains the scene.All they need to do is to justify his picturisation.He follows a pattern of blending the characters with nature.Those claps in sevvandhi poomudicha sinnakka has got nothing to do with the slaps.If you notice, in most of his movies the claps will play a major role.For instance in Alaigal Oyvathillai, Aayiram thamarai mottukale starts with claps and then elevated by mirudhangam.The claps portray "AAyiram Thamarai mottukal" -- kottum anandha kummi, not that Radha slapped Karthik.Also to say that "Indha mottukal viriya, Devadhaikgal ezhuppum kai oosai".In Mudhal Mariyaadhai, when the title card is displayed you can listen to the claps.This is to announce the starting.As you all know in film making, we use to start a scence using the clap board.FYI, more instances of claps in our Director's work:
In Puthumai penn, Kasthoori Maane song starts with claps. In Manvaasanai, the song Anandha Thensindhum poonjolaye has an interlude filled with claps.In Super star's kodi parakuthu , "Kadhal ennai kadhalikka villai" had claps when he concludes "I LOVE YOU".So Claps are just a signature of our Director, not as u interpreted.

Ninaivo Oru paravai, an interesting song.Perfect song to stage Kamal as a playback singer.Again a total misinterpretation(Sridevi's imaginary world and real world) by Mr.sentilv.Sridevi is shown as an average girl with lots of love towards her husband.Even as a psychopathic killer, Kamal loves Sridevi with all his heart.He just want's to forget all the pain that he has gone through.In his thoughts now he has only his wife and the life ahead of him.Puyal kadandha boomiyil, Por mudintha amaithiyil, aanandham meendum vandhal, nam ninaivu siraku mulaithu parakum allava.Its nothing but "Iru Jeevangal aanandha kalavi kolluvadhai sollum paadal".Moreover this song,eases the audiance to get them ready for all the villainy going to be performed by Kamal after that.Both Raja's made sure that there should not be any traces of the forthcoming tragedy to be felt in that song.

Our director always reveals the human emotions blend with nature.Love can be termed as a spontaenous overflow of feelings as Shakespeare always mention.Athaye engal iyakunar madai thirnadhu payum vellamaga kaatuvar(Ofcourse, elevated by Isignani with violin bits).Pen poopadaivathai malar malarvathu polavum(16 vayathinile) Pen thaimai adaivathai , karmegam thirandu mazhai thoova, am mazhai mannil vizhuvadhu polum kaatuvaar(Kizhakku Cheemaiyile).Even a magazine(IDhayam) will play a character in his movies(Pudhiya Vaarpugal).

These kind of works can't be degraded by a sub standard interpretation.People are getting Phd's researching the works of Isaignani and Iyakunar Imayam.
From: Genesis (@ 136.2.1.101) on: Wed Dec 8 13:10:12 EST 2004

Mr.Bhakthan seems to be new guy here. Please forgive him.
From: BarathiRajaBakthan (@ 143.115.159.56) on: Wed Dec 8 13:39:25 EST 2004

Genesis, i'm not here to create ripples. I have freedom and substance to express my views.I'm offended by senthilv's immatured interpretation on the greatest works by the legends.I felt its my responsibility to correct him.
From: senthilv.com (@ 69.148.82.103) on: Wed Dec 8 14:04:09 EST 2004

BarathiRajaBakthan, Thanks for the post.

First, I've lot of respect for Director Bharathiraja. IMO, 16 Vayathinile is one of greatest Tamil film of all time.

Some clarification:

1) My commentaries are a musical interpretation of the underlying film situation and not a visual interpretation of the music. While I'm definitely stepping into Raaja's domain, I'm not in anyway stepping on Bharathiraaja's (BR) toes. I've no clue of BR's description to Raaja. So, I try to guess that collective inspiration from the music. I'm not directing the music.

2) These commentaries are strictly my own interpretations. I�m not claiming to know Raaja's composing techniques or BR's directorial techniques. I'm not evaluating the quality of their work either. I�m just commenting. Of course, I can be totally wrong! As I said in the first post, I�m bound to make mistakes and some wild speculation. If you think I�m wrong, please feel free to point out the mistakes. I�ll be happy to be wrong ;;)

3) While music itself is very well analyzed in this forum its connection with film situation was not discussed much. So, I�m sharing my thoughts on it.

Interesting you bring up the clap in �AAyiram Thamarai mottukal�. They also stand for *celebration* of lover�s union which is the theme of the song (Similar in idea to the clap in �Sevvanthi poo mudicha sinnaka�) A simple clap has different meaning in different context/situation. You�re trying to see it out of the context/situation. A motif without a meaning has no place in art (Commercial art too!)

----Pen poopadaivathai malar malarvathu polavum(16 vayathinile) Pen thaimai adaivathai , karmegam thirandu mazhai thoova, am mazhai mannil vizhuvadhu polum kaatuvaar(Kizhakku Cheemaiyile).----

You point out the symbolism used by BR but fail to grasp the musical symbolism used by Raaja.

---Moreover this song,eases the audiance to get them ready for all the villainy going to be performed by Kamal after that.Both Raja's made sure that there should not be any traces of the forthcoming tragedy to be felt in that song.�

I stated this point in my interpretation. You�re looking from audience point of view and I�m looking from character point of view.

At the point of song, you don�t know kamal�s real intentions, his real love of Sridevi is revealed as the film progresses towards the end of film. My interpretation of the song little based on the psychoanalysis of the characters and the composition of the songs. If I�m wrong please explain why a counterpoint melody is used there. Thanks.

Just because I do something does not mean I know EXACTLY what I�m doing. That includes you, me, Raja and BR.

The beauty of a good film or for that matter any good art is, it is open to different interpretations.

Hope to hear more.
From: eden (@ 136.2.1.153) on: Wed Dec 8 14:04:17 EST 2004

BRB, why BR left out a great treasure like `putham pudhukkAlai' from picturisation? IMHO, that song is in the top 10 of IR songs for BR films...(my top 10 are as below -not necessarily in that order):

1. idhu oru pon mAlaippozhudhu
2. sendhoorappoovE
3. putham pudhukkalai
4. poongathavE thAzh thiRavAi
5. poongAtRu thirumbumA (the best picturised song ever by BR, IMHO)
6. vetti vEru vAsam (a song complete in all respects)
7. kodiyilE, malligappoo (most emotional song for a BR movie ever, IMHO, especially the second interlude melts me)
8. thamthana namthana thALam varum
9. Ayiram thAmarai mottukkaLE
10. kAdhal Oviyam, pAdum kAviyam

I forced myself to leave out great songs like madai thiRandhu, Ayiram malargaLE etc. because for some reason, the songs of the list above appear extremely brilliant compositions...
From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Wed Dec 8 14:08:18 EST 2004

BarathiRajaBakthan,
You have the right to express whatever you have, but the way you express it is important. Politeness. man, Politness. kanivu very very important.
It is all Senthil's interpretation, he probably does not have the insider information like you have. It is possible the director himself may not have intended that way, but works of art, are free to be interpreted in any way by an appreciative audience. Senthil, has clearly, described how counterpoints are used by IR. I myself have observed for eg. in one bgm for a fight scene, the foregroud fight music is backed by a sad string section (to show the heroine is being raped while the fight is going on). In ooradangum samathilE, the strings play just like 'kaathu pOla' as in the lyrics. Most of Senthil's interpretation are not farfetched and highly plausible.

BTW, To me it is very clear, IR wants to portray the two characters are in their own world. Also, I think, IR, hints at the upcoming doom in the first interlude. The heavy percussion is a contrast in a placid song and that too is followed by tumultous strings.
Please understand you are not the only fan of bharathiRaja, many of us here are. whether bharathiraja or ilaiyaraja we are aware of shortcomings/minuses but this thread is about appreciating the postives/landmarks of one composer. So please help in maintaining a positive tone in this thread.

Folks ..actually this is what I wanted to write earlier.

mani maniyaana posts from mani sir :-). Mani and RR have managed to create much positive energy in tfmpage with this thread. Mani's posts are a lesson in writing. He touches upon all the major aspects of a song, whether it is the background information, new musical technique or lyrics. This provides cues for enthusiasts and specialists like, Senthil, to follow upon. If he is the main melody, people like Senthil, are playing nice counterpoints, harmony with it and friends like eden et. all are doing the fills. And music fans like me who enjoy polyphonic music are enjoying the thread. (Ofcourse, I would like to ignore some discordant notes, just like I enjoy certain songs even when recorded badly).
From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Wed Dec 8 15:19:12 EST 2004

"BRB, why BR left out a great treasure like `putham pudhukkAlai' from picturisation? IMHO, that song is in the top 10 of IR songs for BR films."

Its not just that one song. The great "Iyakkunar Imayam" made a habit of leaving out good songs from the film like "dhooraththil naan kanda", "oru kaNam oru yugamaaga" "raasave unna nambi", "malargaLe nadhaswarangaL" etc. Maybe his bhakthan here could explain :-)

Subthread #19 :

From: senthilv.com (@ 69.148.71.27) on: Wed Dec 8 15:34:21 EST 2004

Kiru:

I couldn't have said it better. Thanks.
---

Your thread analogy with music was so cool and the way you put it really made me laugh! Cool.
From: BarathiRajaBakthan (@ 143.115.159.56) on: Wed Dec 8 17:54:04 EST 2004

I am a silent watcher of this thread from the beginning.I read every one of yours comments, carefully with utmost sincerity.Thirukuralukku pala vallunargal pozhipurai ezhuthi irukiraargal.Every one is rich in its own style and substance.I consider the works of Isignani and Barathiraja like thirukural. When you try to interpret their work, you have to do more research.SenthilV is a filmmaker and knows more internals in composing.Aaanal avarathu ezhuthukalil andha prathipalippu illai.Most of the Modern Filmmakers lack this.I'm just concerned about that.Manisekaran sir is revealing the behind screen happenings.We are lucky to know some of the interesting moments of Tamil Cinema.We have to thank him for that.Inge porikapadum ovvoru ezhuthum naalai sarithiram aaahalaam.So only i'm asking you people to be sincere like a pozhipurai writer.Kiru, thanks for reminding me the politeness.Aanitharamaaga sila visayangalai sollumpozhuthu, adakkam illamal irupathu pol theriyum.Neengal En nilai unarumpothu, athu thaanaga puriyum.

Senthil, IMHO I seriously doubt that Ninaivo Oru Paravai as a counter point melody.Counterpoint is mostly used in the situations when the hero and heroine are just lovers.Kadahalargalaaga irukkum pozhuthu iruvarum iru veru mana nilayil irupaargal.Avargaladhu vevveru mana nilayai otha raagagangalin pirathipalippae counterpoint-aaha amaiyum(Poomalaye thol serava,En Kanmani,Nagumo Nayana from Pallavi Anupallavi are some instances. Thaneeril Muzhgum OOdam from Mythili ennai kaadhali is a beautiful counterpoint number from T.R).But when they happened to marry, their thought frequency match and there will be a lead track and a follow track.Ninaivo oru paravai is of that kind only.Iru ilam nenjangal kaadhal othu kalavi kollum pozhuthu paada paduvathu.If you suppress one track and let the other go, it won't make sense.If you get a chance watch the movie carefully again.Kamal's change will be evident when he falls in love with Sridevi.With the rest of the girls, he just does his duty of flirting and killing.But in case of Sridevi, he changes himself totally.He tries to grow the goodness in him to kill the evil.You might have noticed the change in the Background score after Kamal meets Sridevi.Kamalinul irukkum koduram thanindhu, nalla thanmai ootredukkum unarvai isaignani arumyaaga isai vathiyagalin thunayudan solliyirupaar.Andha nalla thanmai aruviyaaga maari mulumai adaivathai thaan Ninaivo oru Paravai paadalin moolam Barathiraaja konduvandhirupaar.Sridevikku unmai therindahdhum, Kamalukkul irukkum andha kodooram meendum thalai thookum.Again you can notice the change in the Re-recording.The same pattern can be noticed in Nooravadhu Naal also.By this time you can easily guess in which category Vizhiyile ManiVizhiyil Mouna Mozhi from Nooravadhu Naal falls into.

Coming to the songs not picturized by iyakunar imayam:

Putham Puthu Kaalai : As you all know our Director always give a solo song for the heroine.Sendhoorapoove,Poovarasempoo already created history.This time he has to offer an inspiring situation to Isaignani "Vidiyal thaan evvalavu azhagu.Ovvoru naalum vidigirathu, irunthum adhan azhagu kuraivadhae illai.En ninaivugalum indha vidiyalai polave endrum ilamayudan irukaatha.Ivvalavu pon kondu dhagikiraaye indha bramaandam unakku yaar thandhadhu.Vaanam netru saayalil kathiravanudan mayyal kondathaal thaana, indru ponnira meni kondu nee pirandhai...." and kept on described the feeling of a girl about the dawn.This girl who doesn't have any proper training on music later goes to agraharam to learn music.So this song has to show her as an admirer of nature as well a thirst inside her to learn music.Isaignani know that Director is picturizing this song in Muttam. Kadal,Malai ena iyarakai varnajaalam kaatum arpudha idam Muttam.Keeping all these in Mind Isaignani with his extraordinary visulaizing capabilities, came up with the composition for Putham puthu kaalai.The track thats been recorded to go for shoot itself was amazing and Director and the crew had a big question about how they are going to justify the song with the technology available to them.They tried their level best to picturise that well.When they saw the rush, they were not happy about the output.Last time the same happened for the song Idhu Oru ponmaalai pozhuthu.Even that song was picturised well,it didn't meet the grandness of the music.So Director planned to remove that song from the movie.Also vizhiyil vizhundhu and putham puthu kaalai had the same locations picturised in them and vizhiyil vizhundhu took the priority.But he was happy about that, since Vizhiyil Vizhunthu is once such fine piece of picturisation.

I will write more about the songs thats been edited and not picturised by our director.You guys will be interested to know that Isaignani composed some songs for Director's movies which you haven't even heard.Only track was recorded and for some reasons they were not picturised.
From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Wed Dec 8 18:05:33 EST 2004

"You guys will be interested to know that Isaignani composed some songs for Director's movies which you haven't even heard.Only track was recorded and for some reasons they were not picturised."

Thats a shame. Anyways, I consider Mahendran/Balu Mahendra team superior to Baharathiraaja when it comes to giving life to IR's songs on screen. BR messed up quite a few songs with his 100-extras -in-white-frocks routine or outright lousy sets as in Pudhumai PeN. Idhu oru ponmaalai was poorly picturized as well. The uplifting interludes not matched properly on the screen by BR.

Contrast this with songs like "azhagiya kaNNE", "adi peNNe", "Paruvame" etc. where every musical nuance in the interlude gets reflected on screen by Mahendran.
From: Anand (@ 83.216.154.253) on: Wed Dec 8 18:06:07 EST 2004

Something that I would like to see is the unreleased videos / rushes of the IR songs thats never been released...Would really like to see how these songs would have been picturised.....Another song that makes me ponder is the song from Dalapathi - "Putham Puthu Poo".....
From: eden (@ 136.2.1.153) on: Wed Dec 8 18:10:00 EST 2004

Thanks BRB for the background info on `putham pudhukkAlai'.

It'll surely be interesting to read about songs that never got into the released album...
From: Senthilv.com (@ 69.148.71.27) on: Wed Dec 8 21:19:18 EST 2004

BarathiRajaBakthan:

Regarding Ninaivo Oru Paravai, You're still talking from audience point view-- what they see, know and hear.(about Kamal etc..) I'm talking from character's (sridevi) point of view--what she sees, knows, imagines and hears.

The song is from Sridevi's point of view but then, if they make a solo song, it is almost a giveaway and will be jarring. (Why is she suddenly singing a solo song after marriage?) So, they cleverly created a reminiscing duet from Sridevi's point of view, and weaved it inside the movie from where it will all fizzle out for her.

Thanks for some very good insider information. Please continue to share more information and express your views.

Senthil
From: Jaiganesh (@ 203.101.103.2) on: Wed Dec 8 22:58:10 EST 2004

Hi!
Nice comments from BRB and senthilv.
BRB's comments go on to prove what Kamal remarked in the Deepavali show in JayaTV. He said about the double effort in having to accommodate for a song in the screenplay and in case if the song is good, break heads in picturising it. Pretty tough job indeed. I thought that BR had to use the devadhaigal in white dress for two reasons in his songs.
1. The lyrics had something like vaanathu dhevadhaigal vaazhthattum
2. IR had used some innovative chorus, which had to come in visual too.

Thanks,
Jaiganesh
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Thu Dec 9 01:15:32 EST 2004

MY OBSERVATION

Dear Friends,
I have made it clear that we are discussing about landmark songs of Raja-landmark songs with reasons that I post. Readers seem to go for famous of their favourite songs. But let us not go out of tangent and get carried away.

I would appreciate if discussions could centre on the songs that I post.

Kindly consider if all of us could tread the same path.

Slight deviation could be accommodated

Manisekaran
From: SN (@ 220.227.179.5) on: Thu Dec 9 02:15:17 EST 2004

Manisekaran, Good that you have intervened at the right time.
Friends, this is an extra ordinary thread and we need to be in line with Manisekaran.
From: raj (@ 61.246.255.3) on: Thu Dec 9 02:51:02 EST 2004

Talking about Ninaivo oru Paravai.. Vaali's Wordplay should be appreciated..

Rojakalil Panner thuli vazhigindrathe adhu enna then

Adhuvallavo parugatha then adhai innum nee parugathathen?

Excellent lyrics..
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Thu Dec 9 03:05:14 EST 2004

Dear Fans,

Can I now post the next song, or shall I wait for the old matters to settle down? Advise please.
From: Madhu (@ 202.54.137.87) on: Thu Dec 9 03:43:56 EST 2004

Mani sir, please proceed with the next gem!
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Thu Dec 9 03:57:18 EST 2004

16. THAMTHANA THAMTHANA THAALAM VARUM

I am now going to relate a story of a case of old wine in new bottle, but bottled with astonishing aesthetic value. Raja did it again.

As all of us are fully aware, a song may contain, at the most, a thogayaraa, Pallavi, anupallavi and a few charanams. Each of these segments would have its own tune (mettu). However in most cases there will be one pallavi and a few charanams, again the pallavi and the charanams having different melodies. To cite a simple example, let us take the following song from Annakkili:

This is the PALLAVI:
ANNAKKILI ONNATHTHAEDUDHAE
AARU MAASAM ORU VARUSAM AAVAARAMBU MAENI VAADUDHAE
ANNAKKILI ONNATHTHAEDUDHAE
AARU MAASAM ORU VARUSAM AAVAARAMBU MAENI VAADUDHAE

The above has its own tune. Now look at the charanam below:

This is the CHARANAM:

NADHIYOARAM PORANDHAEN KODIPOALA VALARNDHAEN
MAZHAIYOADUM VEYILOADUM MANAMPOAL NADANDHAEN
NADHIYOARAM PORANDHAEN KODIPOALA VALARNDHAEN
MAZHAIYOADUM VEYILOADUM MANAMPOAL NADANDHAEN
URANGAADHA...URANGAADHA KANGALUKKU OALAIKONDU MAIYEZHUDHI
KALANGAAMA KAATHTHIRUKKAEN KAIPPIDIKKA VARUVAAROA?

This charanam has a tune different altogether from the pallavi above. This trend continues throughout the song. Such will be the case in all songs.

However, as early as 1955, the great MD G. Ramanathan introduced a novelty which was very much appreciated by the contemporary MDs. In the film T.R.R Productions KOMATHIYIN KAATHALAN(1955), he composed the entire song, using the tune of the pallavi alone. That is to say he used the tune for the pallavi even for the charanams. The song sung and popularised by Seergazhi Govinderajan is:

PALLAVI
VAANAMEETHIL NEENTHIYODUM VENNILAAVE-NEEYUM
VANTHATHENO SANNALUKKUL VENNILAAVE
NAANUM UNNNAI PPAARTHUVITTAAL VENNILAAVE
MUGAM NAANIYE MARAIVATHENO VENNILAAVE

This pallavi has its own tune. Rightfully he should have changed the tune for the following charanam. But he used the same tune used for the pallavi as above. Sing out this charanam:

PATTA PAGALIL JOTHY VEESUM VENNILAAVE
UNNAI PAARPPATHUM ORE VINDHAI ANRO VENNILAAVE
VATTAMAANA UN MUGATHIL VENNILAAVE-RENDU
VANDUKAL SUZHALVATHENO VENNILAAVE

This was against all established norms. Yet the song was well received by the fans.(This song and Kongu Naattu Sengarumbe sung by Seergazhi are also sung and recorded by by Trichy Loganathan. They were privately recorded in Gemini Studio) That was done at a time when mono was the only system available.

The only other song of the same style is in the Forward Arts film NALLA THANGAI, also one where G Ramanathan was the MD. Here he makes TMS sing another song only with Pallavi. The most melodious song is :

THUYIL NEENGI EZHUNTHIDUVAAL
THOOBAM KOZHUTHIDUVAAL

Oh what a song, what a melody? Now let us see what Raja did.

CONTINUES...
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Thu Dec 9 04:01:02 EST 2004

But Ilayaraja did the same trick. The only difference was that Raja did not compose with Pallavi alone, as did G. Ramanathan. He included an anupallavi as well. The film is Manoj Creations PUTHIYA VAARPUGAL. Gangai Amaran wrote the song in four days, while Ilayaraja gave the composition within a few moments. Gangai Amaran wrote the entire Pallavi in just one sentence, as follows:

THAMDHANA THAMDHANA THAALAM VARUM PUDHU RAAGAM VARUM
ADHIL SANDHANA MALLIGAI VAASAM VARUM
MANAMAALAI VARUM SUBHAVAELAI VARUM
MANANAAL THIRUNAAL PUDHUNAAL UNAI AZHAITHTHADHU

In order to make the song very catchy, Ilayaraja used the appropriate Shanmugapriya Raaga. Although G. Ramanathan had used the style before; this is a landmark song for Ilayaraja as that was the first attempt for Ilayaraja to try out a song with pallavi and anu pallavi alone. I would appreciate the producer and the director who did the picturising of the scene. The song starts with a very catchy tune. There was beautiful humming by some heavenly looking maidens, suiting the song. I was simply magnetized, along with other audience in the theatre.

THAMDHANA THAMDHANA THAALAM VARUM PUDHU RAAGAM VARUM
ADHIL SANDHANA MALLIGAI VAASAM VARUM
THAMDHANA THAMDHANA THAALAM VARUM PUDHU RAAGAM VARUM
ADHIL SANDHANA MALLIGAI VAASAM VARUM
MANAMAALAI VARUM SUBHAVAELAI VARUM
MANANAAL THIRUNAAL PUDHUNAAL UNAI AZHAITHTHADHU

(THAMDHANA)

SILLENA MELLIYA THENRALUM VANDHISAI SOLLIYADHU
SUVAI ALLIYADHU MANAM NILLENA SOLLIYUM THULLIYADHU
SILLENA MELLIYA THENRALUM VANDHISAI SOLLIYADHU
SUVAI ALLIYADHU MANAM NILLENA SOLLIYUM THULLIYADHU
PENMANAM POOVILUM MELLIYADHU THAVIKKUM NINAIVOA ENAIK
KILLIYADHU
MALLIGAI MULLAIYIL PANJANAIYOA MANNAVAN THANDHANAN NENJANAIYOA
MINNIYA MINNALUM KANNIYIN ENNANGALOA INI KANAVUGAL THODARNDHIDA

(THAMDHANA)

SINDHANAI AMBUGAL AEYDHADHU ENNIDAM VANDHUVIZHA KAYAL SINDHIYEZHA
MANAM MANNAVAN UNNADI VANDHU THOZHA
SINDHANAI AMBUGAL AEYDHADHU ENNIDAM VANDHUVIZHA KAYAL SINDHIYEZHA
MANAM MANNAVAN UNNADI VANDHU THOZHA
SINDHIYA POOMALAR SINDHIVIZHA ANUPOAL UNARVOA DHINAM MUNDHIYEZHA
ANDHIYIL VANDHADHU CHANDHIRANOA CHANDHIRAN POAL ORU INDHIRANOA
MUNDHAYA NAALINIL ENDHANIN MUNPALANOA THUNAI SUGAM THARA SUVAI PERA

(THAMDHANA)

The song seems very enchanting to an average ear. But Ilayaraja had expected much more from Jency and Vasantha. Otherwise, according to his own statement, the song would have been even better!Even a song that Raja is not too satisfied with has made all the intoxicating effect on me!

Listen to 'thamthana'
Over to dear Raja fans for further discussions.

Subthread #20 :

From: eden (@ 136.1.1.154) on: Thu Dec 9 08:28:50 EST 2004

I used to have (still have) this doubt:
Is it real veeNai used in `thamthana namdhana' or guitar masquerading like veeNai? I think long back it was published in kumudam that veeNai Gayathri used to play for Raja and it probably quoted this song too...however, for some reason I find the use of veeNai sound very novel in this song (ofcourse Raja repeated that sound in many songs later on, e.g. poongathavE of nizhalgaL where it sounds like a `synth-veeNai')...

Whatever may be the case, I love that sound...nam narambukaLai varuduvadhu pOndRa uNarvu andha saptham kEtkumpothu...
From: CSR (@ 202.131.115.148) on: Thu Dec 9 10:30:42 EST 2004

I feel "Thamthananam" is also the usual Pallavi-Charanam format only. In traditional Anupallavi format, anu pallavi is of two lines and is echoing or exactly repeating the last two lines of Charanam (and is like a sample of charanam). Experts can correct me. In tham thana nam the tune of Pallavi and charanam are different.

If repetition of same tune in pallavi and charanam is considered one can give example of IR song in film Vazhakkai "Mella Mella" or other song sung by IR "Netru vandha Kattru" (film name forgotten) which was repeated in Hindi film Grahan also by Karthik Raja.

Tham thananam is a trend setter for songs of "sandham" with long, extended, un-ending lines and similar one such song is "Mazhai varuvadhu mayilukku theriyum (Rishi moolam ?)
From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Thu Dec 9 14:56:20 EST 2004

eden, I suspect it is a synthesizer too.
Most times, the synths play along with the real instruments to add 'more body' to the sound. So it is difficult to tell in IR's songs.
The song has good use of reverb to fade in and fade out the chorus. Notice, also, the humming in the 'charanams'. Usually this is done with strings but in this song with human voices. IR uses human voices for rustic/indian feel instead of strings in normal songs. The interludes have good amount of counterpoints too.
From: SN (@ 220.227.179.5) on: Fri Dec 10 00:07:54 EST 2004

Mani, I read in some article that SJanaki was supposed to sing along with Jency. But she was not available for the recording on time and it had to be given to another singer. How Vasnatha was selected (she had sung only this song under IR's music direction)? Any idea? Was that Vasantha had some resemblence of voice of S janaki?

Later IR used SJ in Vasantha's part and PS for Jency part in telungu version.

Humming by the Chrous was very effective in IR's 70-80's songs. The humming along with the interlude after 1st sharanam is really fantastic. Mani, can you throw some light on this effectiveness of humming (that too by Chorus), as used by IR?
From: M Madhanraj (@ 82.194.62.9) on: Fri Dec 10 02:00:53 EST 2004

When we are discussing about HUMMING & Chorus. Immediately songs like
1. MALARGALAE NATHASWARANGAL (laaliiila laali laaliiila laali ...) - KIZHAKKAE POGUM RAYIL
2. MOUNA RAGAM - CHINNA CHINNA VANNAKKUYIL - Just fantastic.
KAALAM THORUM - HMMMMM HMMMMM
KETKA VENDUM - HMMMMM HMMMMM

There are lot more to the above topic. I am really thankful to MR MANISEKARAN doing a VERY GOOD JOB on IR's MUSIC. I am really enjoying each and every songs explanation and the way it is done.

Thank You Very Much. Sorry for the digression. Mr Manisekaran , you can continue.

Regards

Madhanraj
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Fri Dec 10 02:20:04 EST 2004

Dear
CSR,

This song does not have Charanam. It is pallavi and anupallavi.

Pallavi and Anupallavi could be sung in the same tune. Anupallavi is one scale higher.

SN,
My own observation shows that Ilayaraja used to meditate deeply before composing any song. He used to think of the scene, situation, moood, raaga, interludes and most importantly the choice of the most appropriate singers.

On a number of occassions, Ilayaraja had used other singers whenever they were not available or could not arrive on time. When I met him in his resting room in Prasad Studio, I remember how immersed he was in trying to conceptualise the song. The song was PAADU NILAAVEE from UDHAYAGEETHAM. What a song!Later I came to know that he took a long time to compose and recompose teh song in order to make it the best. In my non professional view, I dont think the cong could have been improved any further. He had already reached the very parameters in the song.

I know for a fact that hummings created by Raja's songs do have effect on me. The effectiveness is the listener getting carried away. On the technical side of the effectiveness, I hope experts could throw some light.

MMadhanraj, this is not a team effort. You may not know how much I enjoy postings from Raja's fans. I too have learnt much from all of you.

Thanks

Mani
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Fri Dec 10 02:22:13 EST 2004

MMadhanraj,

please read it as THIS IS A TEAM EFFORT. Sorry.
From: Madhu (@ 202.54.137.87) on: Fri Dec 10 03:25:43 EST 2004

All:

I have heard IR mentioning this song as one of his favourite compositions just for the reason ... pallavi and anupallavi are too long such that you won't be able to take a breath in between. IR himself sang this song to demonstrate it!

the singer takes the first breath and sings the the following phrase (pallavi + anupallavi)

THAMDHANA THAMDHANA THAALAM VARUM PUDHU RAAGAM VARUM
ADHIL SANDHANA MALLIGAI VAASAM VARUM
MANAMAALAI VARUM SUBHAVAELAI VARUM
MANANAAL THIRUNAAL PUDHUNAAL UNAI AZHAITHTHADHU

and then only the singer takes the second breath! Let me know your views!
From: Jaiganesh (@ 203.101.103.2) on: Fri Dec 10 03:38:11 EST 2004

hi!
Digression **
SPB had remarked in another program that the song from "aarilirundhu arubadhu varai", "kanmaniye kaadhal enbadhu karpanayo.." also had a lot of time b4 taking breath.
** end digression
Thanks,
Jaiganesh
ps: Mani Sir , if time permits I would like to hear Mahendran - IR combination songs also to be taken up for discussion.Please don't forget.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Fri Dec 10 03:45:24 EST 2004

jaiganesh,

Kindly go to the introduction. This is a thread where I am discussing what I consider are landmark songs of Ilayaraja. I am sorry your request is beyond the scope of our discussions.
Kanmaniye Kaathal Enbathu has been tocuhed in brief.

Thank you.
Mani
From: eden (@ 136.2.1.101) on: Fri Dec 10 08:52:28 EST 2004

"THAMDHANA THAMDHANA THAALAM VARUM PUDHU RAAGAM VARUM
ADHIL SANDHANA MALLIGAI VAASAM VARUM "...`pala bhAvam varum' is missed (before sandhana malligai vAsam):-))

This will read as :
'thamthana thamdhana (or is the second one namdhana?) thALam varum-
pudhu rAgam varum-
pala bhAvam varum-
adhil sandhana malligai vAsam varum'
...
From: enabler (@ 68.75.178.174) on: Fri Dec 10 22:16:48 EST 2004

Hello Manisekaran Sir: Your revelation below is what i call drama, emotion, suspense, thriller and everything about your recount of the TFM thriller post MSV, but also one more thing I strongly feel about,(at the end of your statement)

".........We had seen that Raja had all along wanted to use stereo in his songs. He started to build up the equipments in stages. When Jesudass came to Malaysia for the first time in 1977, we met him at TV Malaysia, where he talked great of the YAMAHA amplifiers from Japan. He had just purchased it from Singapore. Raja must have heard of that. When Raja came to Malaysia in 1977, he stayed with my friend Ganapathi. His arrival and departure was not made public as he had come to purchase some electronic equipment for his recording studio. He wished not to meet anyone. From Malaysia he went over to Singapore to buy computer equipments in order to be ahead of others in music. All these were used full in SIGAPPU ROJAKKAL......"

One thing Yesudas can be seen to be instrumental is some ways to get IR moving ahead in "style."

But, the main thing I found is, has anyone used Electronica the way IR has fluently and thrillingly employed in music? (the last I heard was Kraftwerk, but IR came a couple of years ahead with a Rajni film, I think Naan Potta Savaal. Perhaps the only musician to fully expose Electronica in music and also to fully exploit it. I haven't really heard substantial usage by another band or musician.

Your story about Indha Minminikki is mesmerizing me as I read it a few times now.
From: manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Fri Dec 10 22:28:24 EST 2004

Dear enabler,

Thank you for your input.IR has been a pioneer and trend setter in many ways.

Even before he used stereo, he was already mastering in the treatment and presentation of music, especially orchestration. I am still ubable to come out of the magical spell he cast upon me in the orchestration of the song ORU NAAL UNNODU ORU NAAL. Simply superb!

Yes, he started to use computer music in Vikram. By the time Punnagai mannan came he was already a master at that - Enna Satham Intha Neram.

It is quite unfortunate that I am not able to go into every aspect of his songs. I would be stopping after a few more postings. I am sure others can contiune.

Please do continue contributing.

Anbudan

Manisekaran
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Fri Dec 10 23:45:13 EST 2004

17. KANNE KALAIMAANE

The one song that would go down in history is Kanne Kalaimaane in MOONDRAAM PIRAI. That was the last song that Kannadasan wrote for us.

When Ilayaraja started to sing in his childhood days, he went for the songs written by Kannadasan and sung by P. Suseela. His all-time favourite song was MAALAI POZHUTHIN MAYAKKATHILE in the film BAGYALECHUMY. Ilayaraja had sung this song and won awards in his school in Devaram.

It is this song that has made Ilayaraja what he is today, according to his own admission. There is a line in this song, which goes:

Ilamai Ellam Verum Kanavu Mayam- Ithil
MarainthathuSila Kaalam
Thelivum ariyaathu Mudiuvum theriyaathu
Mayanguthu Ethirkaalam
Mayanguthu Ethirkaalam

Youthful days have been spent as a dream. However, the future is till obscure. Therefore Ilayaraja used to meditate on the meaning. He felt that the song emphasised on the need to make a decision for the future. There and then he decided to shape his future and so decided to take up music for his career. He always felt that this song of Kannadasan would be relevant and meaningful for all years to come.

So he is today an MD in a way, owing to this song that triggered off his determination to shape a clear cut future for himself. There is an impact of Kannadasan in his life.

When Raja was assisting other MDs, especially GK Vengakatesh, he had contributed in the composing of the tune for the songs of Kannadasan. One such song was of course THEN SINTHUTHE VAANAM in PONNUKKU THANGA MANSU. But Raja had no opportunity to consort and associate with the great poet. It was only during his second film PAALOOTTI VALARTHA KILI that Ilayaraja had an opportunity to work with Kannadasan directly. When Ilayaraja was introduced to Kannadasan, the poet commented, �I guessed this must be Ilayaraja.� In the song Kannodu Kannu from PAALOOTTI VALARTHA KILI, Kannadasan added a line �VAA RAAJA VAA�. Ilayaraja felt that it was a welcome signal from Kannadasan. Raja considered that a great blessing. After that they worked together in many other movies, and all the songs of Kannadasan still occupy a special place in the musical career of the Maestro.

Meanwhile, when Ilayaraja picked up misunderstanding with some who were very close to Kannadasan, Kannadasan too jumped into the bandwagon and made a very strong statements hitting hard at Ilayaraja. (Details censured) Ilayaraja was naturally sad. Owing to this sad state of affairs Ilayaraja did not use Kannadasan for some time. But deep inside, Ilayaraja felt a great vacuum in the songs that he composed. Later, at a marriage function held at the Rajeswary Marriage hall, Kannadasan was seated in the front row. Ilayaraja who happened to pass Kannadasan enquired �How are you poet? Are you fine?� Kannadasan immediately responded, �When had the poets ever been fine without the support of the Rajas?� Ilayaraja took note of the wittiness of Kannadasan.

CONTINUES...
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Fri Dec 10 23:46:09 EST 2004

Soon old wounds were healed. On another occasion, Ilayaraja wanted to compose music, and wanted quality lyrics. So he sent his assistant � Please bring our poet.� The assistant asked Ilayaraja �Which poet?� Ilayaraja angrily remarked, �What do you mean which poet? As if you do not know that poet in the cine industry refers to only one person, and that is Kannadasan?� Thereafter they started to work together and produce further gems.

In 1980, Kannadasan was not feeling well and was getting prepared to leave for Chicago for medical treatment. It was at this time that the film MONRAAM PIRAI was in the making. Ilayaraja sent for a song, and Kannadasan gave the song. That was the last song of the greatest poet the cine field had ever seen. As soon as Ilayaraja received the lyrics, he was overcome with untold sorrow. Ilayaraja himself is a writer of lyrics. He read and re- read the lyrics and sought to grasp the hidden meaning. Ilayaraja somehow had a premonition that this song would be the very last song from Kannadasan. He felt that Kannadasan had a message that he was leaving the Tamil people, the Tamil language and Tamilnaadu forever. That song was needed for a moving situation in the movie. In a very moving mood, Ilayaraja composed music for that song. And true enough Kannadasan never came back..

The poet�s first song is
Kalangathiru Maname.

His last song is
Kanne Kalaimaane

He hailed from Chiru Koodal Patti
He passed away in Chicago.

That last song of the poet brought crowning fame to Ilayaraja as the MD, Jesudass as the most appropriate singer, and by extension to Kamal Hasan as the one who provided lip movements. Jesudass had a great liking for this song.

I personally would like to trademark this song as a land mark song as Raja was the only privileged MD to have been bestowed this high honour of composing the last song of one whom I consider the greatest poet Tamilnadu has seen in recent days Kannadasan.

That was not the end of the story. Ilayaraja who was so sad following the passing of Kannadasan, continued to compose for his songs. This time he used a poem that Kannadasan had composed much earlier. That is �Devan Thantha Veenai� from the film Unnai Naan Chanthithen.

In my opinion this ranks top among the landmark songs of Ilayaraja. Just look at the lyrics:

Kannae kalaimaanae kanni mayilenak
kandaen unai naanaeandhip pagal unai naan paarkkiraen
aandavanai idhaiththaan kaetkiraen
raariraaroa oaraariroa
raariraaroa oaraariroa

(kannae)

oomai enraal oru vagai amaidhi
aezhai enraal adhil oru amaidhi
neeyoa kilippaedu pan paadum aanandak kuyil paedu
aeno dheyvam sadhi seydhadhu paedhai poala vidhi seydhadhu

(kannae)

kaadhal kondaen kanavinai valarththaen
kanmani unai naan karuththinnil niraiththaen
unakkae uyiraanaen ennaalum enai nee maravaadhae
neeyillaamal edhu nimmadhi needhaanae en sannidhi

(kannae)

Listen to 'kanne kalaimaane'

HAPPY WEEKEND!

Subthread #21 :

From: enabler (@ 68.75.178.174) on: Sat Dec 11 00:50:21 EST 2004

Manisekaran Sir, I can personally say one thing upon reading Kanne Kalaimane: Strange yet Purposeful are the Ways of the Divine. (Didn't notice you are at song 17 already!)

Happy Weekend.
From: Anand (@ 83.216.154.253) on: Sat Dec 11 05:15:37 EST 2004

A great song, Mr.Manisekaran ! I can still visualise Balu Mahendra's cinematography as the song starts - Night enveloping the mountains and slowly becoming darker.The song, a beautiful "thaalattu", rendered by Yesudass's soothing voice and to top it all this, the great poet's haunting lyrics.... Mr.Maniskaran, i heard somwhere that kannadaasan wrote this song for his daughter, vishali kannadaasan. Is that true? Also, is that a solo violin playing as the singer sings? It adds to the pathos and churns out a deep emotion of love, loss and despair...Brilliant performances by Kamal and sridevi through this song... Putting all this togeher, I think this song perfectly fits the profile of a "LANDMARK IR COMPOSITION"

The other briliant song from this movie is : "Vaan engum thanga vinmeengal..."

Anand
From: ravi ks ravichandran (@ 128.110.251.35) on: Sat Dec 11 19:08:49 EST 2004

Anand:

Some years ago, I indicated in one of the topics in TFM, that.."Kannae Kalaimane.." song has a solo violin that closely follows KJY's soulful rendering. I did not discover this until I had a high end music system and a good recording of the song in a Chrome oxide Type II tape.

I wonder how IR probaly could have written notes for violin that follows he violin piece. Or was it composed without notes? It could be.. May be someone knowledgeable can throw some light..
From: CSR (@ 202.131.115.148) on: Sun Dec 12 00:30:01 EST 2004

Violin track which you listned in Kanne Kalaimane might have been the one that was recorded for the track recording before Jesudos voice recording. Usually, such instrument tracks are erased and superimposed with the voice track later, and in this case it might have been left out as such (may be due to recording/mastering error or deliberately left out.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Sun Dec 12 19:44:10 EST 2004

Dear Enabler,

Very well said.

In 1962 Kannadasan in Ratha Thilakam wrote a song and added a line:

NAAN NIRANTHARAMAANAVAN
ENTHA NILAYILUM ENAKKU MARANAM ILLAI

Perhaps he is kept alive by such discussions.

Anand,

Now that Kannadasan is no more alive, many new and unbelieveing stories tend to be circulated. This is the most commone and cancerous disease in the cine field.

This song was written for the movie.
There are people who claim that this is not the last song of Kannadasan. I want to know wchis is that last song.

All I know is that this was the last movie song by Kannadasan. Seergazhi Govindarajan told me that Kannadasan wrote him a poem (last peom) when he visited Kannadasan in Chicago. I have not seen that poem.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Mon Dec 13 19:34:33 EST 2004

18. MAATHA UN KOVILILE

An unprecedented event took place in the history of Tamil films songs, and that has been very close to the heart of Ilayaraja. When Ilayaraja composed music for any song, he paid much attention to the singers that he selected. As he entered the cine field, he had concluded to use singers like P. Suseela, S. Janaki, SP Bala, Jesudass and Malaysia Vasudevan. He was right, as these were the singers who brought out the best of Ilayaraja�s imagination. The female singer who was able to capture and reproduce the imagination of Raja to almost perfection was S. Janaki.

While composing the song MAATHA UN KOVILILE in Mahalakshmi Coimboines
ACHAANI, something unexpected took place. The song was practiced once and the next was to be the final take. The band was ready, and as soon as the cue was given they started to play the prelude. Things went well. Then S. Janaki started to sing. As soon as she went into the first charanam, the melody went haywire and the tune was off tangent. Then all of a sudden the musicians stopped playing. S. Janaki was blinking in shock. Raja was furious! They wanted to know what went wrong. From the recording room, he enquired as to why they all had stopped playing the music. As Raja approached the musicians, he was informed that they were completely mesmerised by the golden and most enchanting voice of Janaki that they forgot themselves and finally forgot the tune as well. Raja just smiled at S. Janaki and she very politely smiled with acknowledgement. This time they were set to record again. In the second recording all of them- S. Janaki and the musicians went one more scale higher to do a better job!. That song became a super hit.

(Such an event had never taken place in the history of the Tamil films. It was only in Samboorna Ramayana an event quite similar to this did take place. When CS Jayaraman was singing the song �INRU PI NAALAI VAARAAI� the sound engineer was completely at loss with the beauty of the tune and the emotional presentation of the singer, that he forgot to switch off the engine even seconds after the singing was over.)

Listen to 'maadha un kovilil'

I have three songs where S. Janaki is simply at her best. Violin and Veena seem to blend almost perfectly well in this great song. It seems Ilayaraja himself had taken a liking for this song. One may also remember that Raja had composed few songs on Christian theme and this is about the best, along with Devanin Thiruchabai Malarkal in Avar Enakke Sontham. Apart from the above, PAADAVAA UN PPADALAI from Naan Paadum Paadal was an excellent piece. The other is KATRIL ENTHAN GEETHAM from Johnny. We booked a female singer to sing the Johnny Song. She did well at the rehearsal, but could not perform on the actual day, as she admitted that the song is indeed and impossible piece for singer, let alone newcomers.

My personal opinion is that Kaatril Enthan Keetham is still a better song. So I chose this song for the show. I find three elements contribute to the success of the song- the musical works, meaning the tune, the background music which is simply and exceedingly haunting, and the full emotions with which S. Janaki sang this song. After the song Singara Velane Deva in Konjum Salangai, this song, I believe must have been the most difficult for Janaki. Again it is my opinion that S. Janaki was the most appropriate choice for this song. Johny shall always be remembered for this song. The song is a crowning glory for the movie.

As the rehearsal was on, I was mesmerised and this time I forgot myself- honestly. It is such masterpieces that have made Raja an immortal figure in the arena of Tamil film music. My question is who gets the credit for the super performance of the song- Raja or Janaki. It is quite difficult to divide the credit. I see it as a perfect combination of a team effort.

I hope TFM Team could provide all the three songs.

Kaatril enthan geetham
kANAtha ondrai theduthey (2)
Alai poley .. ninaivaaga
chillendru veesum maalai neyra
(Kaatril)

Engengum inbam adhu kolam poda
EnnuLLa veenai oru raagam theyda
AnbuLLa nenjai kANAtho
Aanantha RAgam pAdAtho
Kangal Yengum
Nenjin sogam .. MEylum yEtrum (Kaatril)

Nillendru sonnal manam nindral podhum
Neengatha nenjil Alai Oyinthaal podhum
Mounaththin RAgam kELAtho ..
Mounaththin ThALam podatho ..
Vazhum kAlam yavum ingey nenjam ThEdum
(Katril)

Listen to 'kaatril endhan geetham'
From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Mon Dec 13 20:20:32 EST 2004

Mani sir,
who is the lyricist for 'maadha un kovil'. This song really rends your heart when Janaki 'thaayendru unnaith thaan piLLaikku kaattinEn'. There are not that many songs in which people are emotionally/personally involved with Divine figures (somebody post if they know better, this is an interesting cultural phenomenon). The only other song that comes to my mind is KVM's gangai karai thOttam ..though less serious, but equally moving considering the helplessness of a lovestruck woman with Lord Krishna.
From: Bala (@ 68.38.80.142) on: Mon Dec 13 20:51:54 EST 2004

Mani Sir

Thanks for the write up

Madha un Koyilil is by 'Vaali'

Bala
From: MumbaiRamki (@ 63.186.32.178) on: Mon Dec 13 21:20:11 EST 2004

Maatha un kovillale -entha padam sir ??
From: manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Mon Dec 13 21:28:13 EST 2004

Mumbai Ramki

maatha Un Kovilile in ACHAANI
From: RR (@ 192.122.134.249) on: Mon Dec 13 21:37:00 EST 2004

I can't seem to locate 'paadava un paadalai' in my collection. If anyone has an .mp3, pls send it to rrprivate-tfm at yahoo dot com. The other two are up.
From: jeeves (@ 203.101.40.22) on: Mon Dec 13 23:27:28 EST 2004

Naan Paadum Paadal - Paadava Un Paadalai is available here
http://web.music.coolgoose.com/music/song.php?id=102225
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Mon Dec 13 23:31:31 EST 2004

jeeves

Thank you so much. Now the list is complete.

manisekaran
From: Ras (@ 194.170.246.121) on: Tue Dec 14 05:35:43 EST 2004

Manisekaran,
Thanks. These three are definitely great numbers, especially "Maatha Un Kovilil" and "Kaartil Endan Geetham". However amongst the many real complex songs composed by IR and rendered excellently by Janaki, I would rate "Pon Vaanam Panneer Thoovudu Inneram" from "Indru Nee Naalai Naan" (forget the pathetic picturisation of the song showing the widowed Lakshmi dancing in the rain in 'viraga daapam', with Sivakumar doing his trademark senseless, distorted, facial expressions, again trying to portray his version of viraga daapam) and "Sangeethame En Jeevane" from Kovil Pura as very important numbers that appeal to both the lay person and the technically-tuned listener. In my opinion, not many singers (amateur or professional) can do justice to these songs.

I'm not sure if these do feature in your pick, but thought I'd highlight them nevertheless.
From: M Madhanraj (@ 82.194.62.9) on: Tue Dec 14 05:42:04 EST 2004

Adding to the Listing of Ras
'AZHAGU MALAR AADA , ABHINAYANGAL KOODA ...'
from VAIDHEHI KATHIRUNTHAAL.

Manisekaran, Also I remember faintly, SONG 'MAATHA UN KOVILIL' brought IR and Kannadasan more close. Also I remember that BELL sound in this song has some story. While recording IR created some news about this BELL. If somebody knows, pls throw some light on this matter.

Regards

M Madhanraj

Subthread #22 :

From: kumarr (@ 213.42.2.27) on: Tue Dec 14 06:41:40 EST 2004

Ras, you very correctly said it.

"Pon Vaanam Panneer Thoovudhu Inneram" is a great song by SJ and stands testimony to her versatility till date.

I will only be surprised, if this is not part of the pick of Mani Sir.

Her hummings in that song, are very difficult to replicate by any other singer.

Sheer Voice Magic.

She will drag the humming like anything and a sheer wonder and magic.

In fact, I will rate this one ahead of the othet three mentioned by Mani Sir.

Simple Reason, the other three songs have a tinge of sadness and pathos, whereas "Pon Vaanam Panneer Thoovudhu Inneram",though, Aekkam Niraindha Ondraaga Irundhaalum, is vibrant still.
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.154) on: Tue Dec 14 10:03:06 EST 2004

While all these songs by IR/SJ combo are great / mesmerising, I personally feel they are great melodic compositions basically and any one of the top singers (PS, KSC, VJ or Asha B / Latha M) could have done justice to most of them. Songs like sheNbagamE, EdhEdhO eNNam vaLarthEn, nAnoru sindhu etc. are equally moving.

However, songs where SJ is incomparable are her duets with SPB! None can come anywhere closer to this combo!

Ofcourse, there are some solo's as well where the basic composition is just above average but not sublime, SJ took them to greater heights. Examples : dEvan kOvil, deepam ondRu in nAn pAdum pAdal... or puththam pudhukkAlai in alaigal Oyvadhillai...
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.154) on: Tue Dec 14 11:45:46 EST 2004

However, I have to admit that Johny is a landmark album for IR and `kAtRil endhan geetham' a landmark song!

'mAdha un kOvilil' is a nice melody (another song that comes to my mind of similar nature is the `kadavuL uLLamE Or karuNai illamE' of anbuLLa Rajinikanth which gives me goose pimples...BTW, who sang that? It's another proof that for a soul-stirring melody, any decent singer, even unknowns, can do justice)
From: ttt (@ 192.160.6.252) on: Tue Dec 14 12:44:55 EST 2004

kadavuL uLLamE (anbuLLa rajnikAnth) is sung by Latha Rajnikanth & chorus
From: MumbaiRamki (@ 151.148.60.180) on: Tue Dec 14 13:39:39 EST 2004

Mani Sir ,
Thanks alot for the Madha Kovik song .......These are just gems !!!!
From: Ayyappan (@ 165.91.179.139) on: Tue Dec 14 15:11:41 EST 2004

``Thenil Aadum roja
Poonthendral Aadakkandeyn...``

Another great song by Ilayaraja. Any idea about the movie?
From: senthilv.com (@ 68.88.72.12) on: Tue Dec 14 15:47:12 EST 2004

Manisekaran:

Great info! The first charanam of 'maadha un kovilil' pierces your heart like a no steel rod can do. No wonder that the musicians stopped playing their instruments :)

KATRIL ENTHAN GEETHAM and PAADAVAA UN PPADALAI were my favorites since my childhood! That�s before I consciously started to listen to music in very late 80�s ;)

The mood and the feeling that comes out of IR-SJ combo are really amazing to me. Probably, they understand each other's musical acumen better.

Earlier someone (Prabhudas?) in this thread asked about �mysterious� ability by Raaja to invoke a certain mood and feeling in his songs. Well, I came across couple of notes which might give an idea or throw some insight into this �mysterious� phenomenon.

------
Denis Diderot is a French philosopher, writer, encyclopedist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Diderot
(The links are just for reference, the actual notes are taken from a different source)

Notes on his music theory: �Diderot deduced the theory that compositional principles in vocal, and later in instrumetal music derived from the basic intonations of living emotional speech (as well as from sound phenomena perceived by our ancestors in surrounding nature)�

Another note is from Nikolaus Forkel. He is a music theorist and I think he made Sebastian Bach well known and famous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Nikolaus_Forkel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Sebastian_Bach

Forkel on Bach:

�He (Bach) considered his voices as if they were persons who conversed together like a select company. If there were three, each could sometimes be silent and listen to others till it again has something to the purpose to say�
------

We all know Bach is Raaja�s favorite composer and his music also reflects some of Bach�s ideas.

An observation from these notes is human emotions (originally) give birth to music and great music is not derived from other music or musical forms. It has to come within the composer the emotional realm. So when we(listeners) listen to these songs we are consuming those emotions crystallized in a musical form. When you feel something in Raaja�s songs, you�re probably feeling the �feeling� felt by Raaja or S. Janaki when they did the song. No wonder everyone feels like they know them ;)
From: Vazhipokkan (@ 40.0.40.10) on: Tue Dec 14 16:44:19 EST 2004

How come Deva doesn't have one :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilayaraja
From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue Dec 14 16:57:24 EST 2004

I can see why IR liked "maatha un kovilil" a lot. He just had to rehash the tune a little to give "Maniyosai kettu ezhundhu" a couple of years later :-))
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Tue Dec 14 19:53:05 EST 2004

Ras and Kumar,

Thank you your opinions on Pon Vaanam Panneer Thoovuthu Inneram. I agree that this song is great in its own way, but the songs that drew wider attention from Raja's fans were the three I had mentioned.

The song that I wanted to highlight is actually Maadha Un Kovilil, as there is an unprecedented incident behind the song . Then I felt Kaatril Enthan Geetham adn Paadava En Paadalai also need to be mentioned 'in passing" all based on the popularity.

You can see other readers are choosing some other songs of S. Janaki.

Perhaps the song Pon Vaanam is a matter of personal taste, though it cannot be ruled out that the song is indeed haunting. The orchestration is great too.

Manisekaran
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Wed Dec 15 01:44:36 EST 2004

19. ILAYA NILAA POZHIGIRATHE

As a child Ilayaraja had been singing along the roads in his village, especially the woods. He used to make the flute himself and play it. Then when he joined his paavalar Sahodararkal musical troupe he started to play harmonium. Once in Madras after 1968 he started to concentrate on playing guitar and harmonium.

In Madras he was desperate to learn western music from the famous Master Danraj. It was this master Danraj from whom several other MDs like TK Ramamurthy had learnt western tunes and instruments. Most of Chandrababu�s western styled songs were composed by Master Danraj.

Initially, Raja enrolled under Danraj to play only guitar. But Raja could not afford to pay the fee. So Raja had to sell off his own harmonium player to pay the fee. This news reached the Master. He was only too sad to learn of the state of affairs Raja was in. But he was equally proud to see the burning enthusiasm on the part of Ilayaraja. Raja was to come for the lessons twice in a week. But Master Danaraj allowed him to come any day, or even every day. Master Danaraj also allowed him to learn not only guitar, but all other western instruments as well. In his great magnanimity, Master Danaraj decided not to take fee from raja.

Very soon Raja excelled in playing western tunes. We know that Raja won Gold Medal from the London Trinity College for excelling in guitar.

Then raja found himself as assistant to GK Vengkatesh. He was playing with other band members. Whenever other members went for lunch, raja used to stay back and play and practice with the assistance of some of his friends. It was to that extent that Raja had a strong ambition to prove a point.

When KOVAITHAMBY produced PAYANANGAL MUDIVATHILLAI, there was ample situation for some of the best songs. In fact all the seven songs in this movie happened to be hits. Yet one song has to be singled out for the most beautiful way in which raja gave life to guitar. As much as violin was enslaved by Kunnakkudi Vaithianathan, Raja enslaved guitar to his command. In this song raja was simply at his very best. The song must be listened to from the original film sound track. It is longer and even much better. The song and the interludes had been cut off in the vinyl record.

In my opinion that was the song that had the longest prelude and interlude using guitar. I remember how much the guitar players themselves took a great liking for this landmark song of Raja. It is most unfortunate again that raja never repeated guitar performance set tot his beauty in other songs. Bits did surface in EN Iniya Pon Nilaave in MOODU PANI. But Ilaya Nilla Pozhigirathe is simply incomparable to any other of his guitar songs.

This is the first film where a cut out was made for Ilayaraja. He was again the first MD to have been given a cut out. It was a name recognition, nay name consolidation movie for Raja. The movie ran for 250 days! Remember Mohan too grew under the limelight of Ilayaraja, with this movie giving him a complete breakthrough.

ilaiya nilaa pozhigaradhae idhayam varai nanaigiradhae
ulaap poagum maegam kanaak kaanudhae vizhaakkaanudhae vaanamae
(ilaiya nilaa)

varum vazhiyil pani mazhaiyil paruva nilaa dhinam nanaiyum
mugileduththu mugam thudaiththu vidiyum varum nadai pazhagum
vaana veedhiyil maega oorvalam kaanumboadhilae aarudhal tharum
paruva magal vizhigalilae kanavu varum

(ilaiya)

mugilinangal alaigiradhae mugavarigal tholaindhanavoa
mugavarigal thavariyadhaal azhudhidumoa adhu mazhaiyoa
neela vaanilae velli oadaigal oaduginradhae enna jaadaigal
vin veliyil vidhaiththadhu yaar nava manigal

(ilaiya)

I remember even non Tamil speaking guitarists in Malaysia were moved to give glowing tributes to Ilayaraja for what they considered a masterpiece. This song made them lookout and dig the background of Ilayaraja.
From: Sharath (@ 203.190.152.34) on: Wed Dec 15 02:39:35 EST 2004

Mani Sir,

I am posting a message for the first time here in this forum.

Ilaya Nila is one of my all-time fav songs from the Maestro.

Just a week back I played that song to my marathi room-mate and convinced that this is the original and the Kishore-kumar's Neele Neele Ambar par was a copied version.

More than the song, which is absolutely out of the world, I like the finishing Guitar touch of this song and I re-play that section again and again.

Thanks for the interesting background information on the song and on the Maestro.

Just one small question, I read somewhere that when Maestro won Gold Medal from the London Trinity College for excelling in guitar, he was regarded as one among the top 10 Guitarists in the world that time.

I also remember reading somewhere that the Maestro's favorite instrument is the Guitar and the most popular photo of his in cassettes and CDs is him with the Guitar.

I think, even in the movie Manasellam, when Srikanth sings the "Chinna Kuyile" song.. his table will have the photo of the Meastro with a guitar in his hand.

I think this will be a healthy thread to discuss more on Ilayaraja and his guitar.

Subthread #23 :

From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Wed Dec 15 03:01:37 EST 2004

Sharath,
Thanks for joining the thread. Ilayaraja appears with different musicl instuments in many photos. guitar may be his favi=ourite instument, given the background that he won gold medal from the London Trinity College. I am not able to comment if he was one of the top 10 in the world.

Whenever i want to listen to this song, I watch it over the movie -DVD or VCD- all because the original sound track in the movie is a wholesome piece, where Raja displays a masterly order in giving life to the guitar. What we hear in the cassette or vinyl record is somewhat a shortened version.

Perhaps with the knowledge you already possess on guitaring, you could assist in throwing more light on this song.

Thank you so much. I am sure readers are waiting for your inputs.

Since you ahve just come in, you could also make a trip over the earlier songs and give comments in the new hub.

Manisekaran
From: Sharath (@ 203.190.152.34) on: Wed Dec 15 03:29:37 EST 2004

Mani Sir,

I would like to add the song "Kodai Kaala Kaatre" from "Panneer Pushpangal" to your mention of En Iniya Pon Nilaave in Moodu Pani as another song where Ilayaraja has shown glimpses of his mastery over using a guitar to perfection.

I also read somewhere (May be in this forum) that he never plays the guitar for his orchestra to demonstrate.. and for some of his compositions his orchestra will take great pains to ensure perfection.

Talking about other landmark songs you have discussed, all threads were quite informative. I liked "Sevvanthi Poo" song from "16 vayathiniley" and Senthilv's excellent description of the song picturisation.

Ilayaraja himself told in an interview that two directors that come to his mind on song picturisation as Bharathiraja and Vamsi (telugu).

But it is a different story that the same bharathi raja didn't quite picturise few gems like "Poonkadhavey" from Nizhalgal well.
From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Wed Dec 15 03:57:33 EST 2004

Sharath,

Ilayaraja, a great genius is much different from hie predecessors and even his contemporaries. in the pre Raja period, the MDs used to write down seperate notes for each of the instruments and the musicans in the band. that would take a long time. In the case of Ilayaraja, he would sit and write the entire notes on a notation sheet. That note would inlude all instruments. As he writes, all the musicians would stand around him and take down notes related to their instruments. The work is over within 15 minutes fora good song. Then the rehearsal on the floor in the presence of Raja. Then he goes into the recording panle and sits with the Sound engineer. One more final rehearsal and then the final recording! I was a witness to this once. I could see the tension in the faces of the musicians. That Raja demanded a high standard was clear.

No others had done this before Raja. That was the speed at which notes were taken down. To put it in another way, that was the speed at which ideas emanated from the brilliant mind of Raja.

Likewise, while doing re-recording for a movie, MDs used to watch the scene a few times. raja used to compose as the movie scene rolls on in the screen in the studio. Another great spee. Chinnathamby songs were supre hits- all composed within 45 minutes!

I have some rare photos. How am I to scan and post them in this site?
From: manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Wed Dec 15 04:00:52 EST 2004

Could someone psot the song Ilaya Nilaa Pozhigirathu please?

manisekaran
From: anomi (@ 61.2.36.167) on: Wed Dec 15 04:32:44 EST 2004

http://www.rakkamma.com/~interludes/Greatest_Guitar_Interludes.mp3
http://www.tamilmax.com/midi/ilayanila.mid
From: M Madhanraj (@ 82.194.62.9) on: Wed Dec 15 05:40:50 EST 2004

To ADD to IR's work in Guitar - we have to listen 'PAADI VAA THENDRALAE, ORU POOVAI THAALATTUVAE' beginning... - By Jayachandran from One Sarathbabu Movie. It has other fantastic songs, Including 'THENNANGEETRUM THENDRAL KAATRUM ....'

Regards

M Madhanraj
From: jeeves (@ 203.101.40.22) on: Wed Dec 15 06:38:40 EST 2004

MP3 version of Payanangal Mudivathillai-Ilaiya Nila song is available from http://web.music.coolgoose.com/music/song.php?id=66770
From: G.Ragavan (@ 61.16.168.141) on: Wed Dec 15 07:01:54 EST 2004

"Illaya Nila Pozhigirathu" is one of the master pieces in IR-SPB combo. My northie friends liked tamil version to hindi version to which they were used to.

Manisekharan,
There are plenty of songs you can bring forth with ur wonderful write up. I have a small request to you. I have heard the song "melam kotta neram varum", but hv no other idea about that song. If possible can you write about that song also.

Regards,
Ragavan
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.101) on: Wed Dec 15 12:01:08 EST 2004

ilaya nilA - not just a landmark song for IR, PM is a landmark album for TFM. This one brought so much recognition for the MD thanks to Raja which remained so till very recently.
From: kumarr (@ 213.42.2.10) on: Wed Dec 15 13:35:20 EST 2004

"Ilaya Nilaa Pozhigiradhae..." is a very good song from the stable of Raaga Devan.

The lyrics add beauty to this song, very much impressive and do make a mark.

Particulary, look at the lines

"Mugilinangal Alaigiradhae Mugavarigal Tholaidhanavo
Mugavarigal Thavariyadhaal Azhudhidumo Adho Mazhayo"

Raining or the fall of Rains is a natural Phenomenon.

See this lyricist; he finds a reason for the rains too.

The clouds are moving or wandering up the sky.

You know what does it seem to the lyricist, when he sees this ?

He sees that the clouds are wandering because they had lost the address, which makes them wail and the tears that are thus shed are these rains.

Wow !

"Mazhaikkum Oru Arthathai Karpikiraar Indha Kavingar."

If I am not wrong, I think, this is called "EduthuKaattu Vuvamai Ani" in Tamil Literature.

As many members have said, Guitar dominates and drives this song.
From: Anand (@ 83.216.154.253) on: Wed Dec 15 18:04:32 EST 2004

One of the things that always comes to my memory is Mohan moving his fingers up and down the guitar bridges, pretending to play the guitar !!! Sve Shekhars annoyance at his playing the guitar is my own reaction !! ;)
But as a song, Raja has mesmerised us and I agree with Mr.Manisekaran in that there is not another song where IR had given so much thought to the composition of the guitar melody. I have a question for mr.manisekharan. Has IR ever played this bit in a live concert or to an audience? And if not, is there anyway anyone can request him to do that? (I know he was planning a world tour shortly)
From: Anand (@ 83.216.154.253) on: Wed Dec 15 18:17:10 EST 2004

Another query. Who is the MD for the song , "En Purushanthaan, enakku mattumthaan" (the Suhasini-Radha-Mohan) song?? That song has brilliant guitar pieces as well - in fact the finest after "Ilaya Nila".
From: prabhudas (@ 143.104.179.230) on: Wed Dec 15 18:37:06 EST 2004

It's been a week for me lots of songs to catch up on,
Manishekaran, thanks for the info on "Maadha Un Kovilil" song

On "thamthana thamthana taalam" song from 'Pudhiya vaarppugazh", I remember reading in a magazine in the 80's ( I don't know how true it is), they had mentioned usage of
" Electric Veena" by IR , is there such thing some thing similar to " electric Guitar" and as someone else mentioned here and by Saravanan in some other thread, Veena Gayathri had played Veena for many songs of IR in the early years.

About the long "pallavi", it was told by IR himself in one of those interviews in SUNTV on a Diwali day ( that program was conducted by gangai Amaran I think who had made a total mess, showing IR as King entering some Darbar hall in Prasda studio etc), when Ir was asked about "Keladi Kanmani" song by SPB with that long charanam, IR immediately pointed out as it was nothing new and not a great deal , and mentioned his earlier compositions including " Kanamaniye " and the reference "Thamathana " song, personally it sounded ( in that interview)to me as if IR didn't feel it was a great deal about " Keladi Kanamani" song to have sung by SPB ( In my opinion ) despite the fact that every music fan like that song that it was a great song composed by IR and very well rendered by SPB.

Ravi KS Ravichandran,
I thought the same way about "Kanne Kalaimaane" song that the violin back up all along the track was probably instrumental track retained, I remember few other songs which have the tracks distinctly appearing prominant in the background
1." hey paadal onru" in the charanam
2."paruvame pudhiya paadal" the last repeat pallavi in fact appears like the singer missed the track and briefly the back ground track appears before SJ starts it again ( some body clarify this, I used to notice that in Radio Broadcasts initially, but I hear in every recording the same , cassette, CDs )

SJ solo songs with IR, it is a mammoth of a topic for me, as I invariably get lost as to choose the best, I don't know if one lifetime
(with an average listening time of 1 decent hour a day amidst ur college days, work days, ippo pondatti, pillai kutti ngaloda..etc etc..) is enough to just enjoy those gems ( if u are serious listener for 45 years before u are partially deaf between age 20 to 65 years and with your cholesterol, BP, sugars favoring ur life expectancy, one gets a mere 684 days at the above listening rate i.e. less than 2 years in our life time..... Raaja .. U have done too much to us and we have too little time to enjoy..)

Like Disney cartoon research lab tour, CNN network tour and many such guided tours, I wish ( imagine) some decant recording studio should organize a tour "A typical day with IR and his music" as how he begins his work for a typical movie, the spontaneous flow of his musical thoughts, the tunes,the notations, the mini rehearsals the recording of a song and finally a full session of BGM scoring everything to watch as a spellbound spectator ( wouldn't this be cool, ..and it is one of my life time ambition /dream to watch...Manishekaran Oru Pass vaangi tharuveengala.....just kidding about the pass)

Lastly, Manishekaran, didn't we jump from song 5 to 13? are we revisting those remaining songs later?... please we will wait till next Diwali if needed.

SenthilV ,thanks for those links I will look into those links.
Guitar and Raja, another great song I like with amazing Guitar work " En Purushan than Enakku Mattum Than" from G sayvadillai, many of the pre Annakili work with GKV in Kannada had some great guitar work.

RR, is there a way Manishekaran share those rare pictures of IR thro' the forum?

I just finished reading a 8 part autobiographical article of Maestro IR written by Lyricist turned MD K Kalyan ( Kannada) in a kannada magazine ( Roopathara) which had some very rae pics. of IR, one with RD Burman is too cool, he literally looks like a school kid.

Prabhudas
From: prabhudas (@ 143.104.179.230) on: Wed Dec 15 18:39:55 EST 2004

typo read as "decent recording studio" not decant

Subthread #24 :

From: Manisekaran (@ 61.6.39.139) on: Wed Dec 15 22:28:13 EST 2004

Anomi and Jeeves

Thank you for supplying the songs. Listerning is believing.

Ragavan,

Melam Kotta Neram varum is from Laksmy, sung by BS Shashirekha. I am writing on land mark songs, not popular songs. When I say landmark, there must be a precedence in the song, or some other turning point in the music.

Prabhudas,

I have also mentioned that THAMTHANA is an old wine in a new bottle. It is an old concept, but Raja did it better with more odern equipments. One must understand that Gangai Amaran and Ilayaraja parted after some time. So comments by both parties could have taken a negative turn.

It was Director SA Chandrasekhar who took me to Prasad Studio. If you ahve some conections with the cine people, I am sure you can make it to see for yourself how the genius Raja works.

My compter crashed and I may have lost count of the earlier songs.

I have a few more songs to post after which I would call it a day. Other enthusiasts may continue, as all of us have a share in this discussion thread.

Anbudan,
manisekaran
From: Sharath (@ 203.190.152.34) on: Thu Dec 16 02:01:52 EST 2004

I got the following information from a bolg page of a person, who got a chance to meet the Maestro during June this year in US.

He (Ilayaraja) has never played the guitar for any of his songs - including "Ilaya Nila". If there are difficult phrases he will do a demo for the guitarist. For "Ilaya Nila" apparently the the guitarist, who was much senior to him in the industry, was able to reproduce only 10% of what he had shown him".

Now we may have some guitar-experts to comment further.
From: vik (@ 203.145.156.130) on: Thu Dec 16 04:56:29 EST 2004

I would like to recollect that in one of interview by SPB in DD (Long time back), he sang few lines of some song and also noted that he still admired the way IR organised and also played the guiter for the song, during the recording session. I am not very sure, which song it was, but I guess it should be 'Illaya Nila.'
From: Genesis (@ 136.1.1.101) on: Thu Dec 16 10:53:25 EST 2004

I do like "Ilaya Nila" song from PM - it is one of the classics. But "Adiye Aththa" song is one of the outstanding "Dappa Kuththu" song... My most favourite DK song...

One more song "Adye Manam Nilluna" from Neengal Kattavai has similarities with this song. Both songs are very lively rendered by SPB.
From: eden (@ 136.1.1.33) on: Thu Dec 16 11:41:27 EST 2004

Genesis,
Both those are `sophisticated' dappAnguthu's IMO:-) I would place the KJY songs `vachchappArva theerAdhai' from ilamaikkolam and `thaNNiththotti thEdi vandha' from sindhubhairavi in the same category. Throughly enjoyable songs, though kind of rare by KJY!
From: kumarr (@ 213.42.2.22) on: Thu Dec 16 14:00:52 EST 2004

"Vachukkava Onna Mattum Nenjukkula Sathyama Nenjukulla Onnum Illa..." from "Nallavanukku Nallavan" too is a kind of rare song by KJY.
From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Thu Dec 16 17:18:16 EST 2004

If KJY is singing a dappAnguththu it is quite possible it is a raagam based composition. I know thanni thotti is one such. But somebody needs to confirm/deny the rest.

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